The Senedd met in the Chamber and by video-conference at 13:30 with the Deputy Presiding Officer (David Rees) in the Chair.

Statement by the Deputy Presiding Officer

Welcome to this Plenary session. Before we begin, I want to set out a few points. This meeting will be held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference. All Members participating in proceedings of the Senedd, wherever they may be, will be treated equally. A Plenary meeting held using video-conference, in accordance with the Standing Orders of the Welsh Parliament, constitutes Senedd proceedings for the purposes of the Government of Wales Act 2006. Some of the provisions of Standing Order 34 will apply for today's Plenary meeting, and these are noted on the agenda.
Before we move to the first item, I'd like to announce the result of the Member Bill ballot held today. I'm pleased to announce that Sam Rowlands may seek the Senedd's agreement on his proposal for an outdoor education Wales Bill.

1. Questions to the Minister for Economy

The first item this afternoon is questions to the Minister for Economy, and I call Llyr Gruffydd.

Economic Growth in North Wales

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 1. What are the Welsh Government's plans to encourage economic growth in north Wales? OQ58364

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch for the question. We are actively working with our regional partners, including Ambition North Wales, to maximise opportunities for the region. The collaboratively produced regional economic framework for north Wales was published last December. This sets out our shared priorities for the region and will form the basis of an agreed delivery plan.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Well, thank you for that response.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: The new census results are highlighting how many local authorities across north Wales are actually experiencing a decrease in population. We’re also seeing the population aged over 65 in Wales increasing and the population of people aged 15 to 25 actually fell during the census period. Now, yesterday, the First Minister effectively denied the existence of a clear trend of losing many young people from our communities across Wales, and not only people moving out of Wales, but moving from rural into urban communities, from north to south Wales. What risk do you think that poses to economic growth in my region of north Wales, and what’s the Government doing to try and tackle that problem?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I don't think it's fair to say that the First Minister denied that that factual trend is taking place. It was more about the narrative and the tone of what we are trying to do in recognising that that's taking place. In fact, it was part of the refreshed economic mission that I set out in October last year. It forms the work that was done in advance in recognising that this isn’t just a challenge for public services. In my previous role, we were talking lots about the reality that health and care systems will be under more pressure because of the good news story that more of us can expect to live for longer. Actually, the additional challenge that we have in Wales is that our older population is growing at a faster rate than the working-age population itself. That’s also an economic imperative as well.
So, we have challenges about what we do to attract people to come back to Wales if they’ve gone to other parts of the world to work and study. It’s also about how we attract people who aren’t from Wales to want to be part of our future. And we see that as a potential net gain for Wales as well. We think that will only happen if there are attractive options for the world of work and, indeed, the quality of life people can have in Wales as well. And actually, the pandemic has accelerated a range of those trends—the ability to work remotely in different parts of the world, and the fact that people are more interested in their quality of life, where Wales has an awful lot to offer. This is all about how we have more people wanting to plan their future here. Wales is a really good place in which to plan your business and to grow your business, and that should help us with the challenge we do have when it comes to demographics and the impact on the economy.

Jack Sargeant AC: The Minister, I'm sure, will have seen the recent announcement from Rolls-Royce that Deeside is one of six locations shortlisted for the first small nuclear reactor factory. Now, the reality is that nuclear power will have a role to play in ending our reliance on fossil fuels, and the Minister and Members will know that we do have a highly skilled workforce in the north-east of Wales required for such bids. And I say that with pride as a Member who previously has worked in the manufacturing and engineering industry in Deeside alongside colleagues in that sector, and I am proud to be able to say that. Minister, this is a chance to increase economic growth not just in Alyn and Deeside, but right across north Wales. Therefore, can I ask you, Minister, what the Welsh Government can do to support such a bid?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, I take on board the preamble stuff about the reality that nuclear will be a part of our future energy mix. If you look at what the alternative is, Germany, for example, having moved away from nuclear, is now having to restart and reinvest in coal and that has real and significant unavoidable consequences for the whole planet and not just Germany itself. So, we are very clear that we want to see investment that will benefit the local economy, and, of course, you're right that north Wales, across the board, has significant strengths in advanced manufacturing and engineering. And if that investment were to be made in Deeside, and we would like it to be, there would be significant numbers of jobs, not just within Deeside, but what it would mean for the future. So, we'll continue to be positively engaged around Trawsfynydd, around Wylfa, and around Rolls-Royce's potential ambitions and what that could mean for Wales. My officials continue to meet with Rolls-Royce; there is good constructive engagement. And we look forward and hope that Deeside will, ultimately, be the starting point of SNR production, and, indeed, as the First Minister said yesterday, a future for radioisotope production in Traws as well.

Sam Rowlands MS: Can I also support Jack Sargeant's calls there for that continued support, and thank you, Minister, for your commitment to that for north Wales? As you say, it will be a significant economic improvement for us in the region.
Last week, Minister, I had the pleasure of meeting with the Wales Business Council, who I'm sure you know are a group who bring together around 31 business representative organisations from the private sector here in Wales. They highlighted to me in particular the importance of attracting highly skilled jobs into my region in north Wales—of course, the type of thing that Jack Sargeant's just raised with you there. They also welcome, Minister, your continued engagement with the private sector and that continued relationship. I wonder how you'd describe that relationship, Minister, and, if you were to have some personal improvements in that relationship with the private sector over the summer recess, which areas would you want to improve on?

Vaughan Gething AC: I actually think that we're in a very good position in our relationship with a range of stakeholders. I'm meeting trade union groups next week. I met with Community, a largely steel-based trade union, to talk about the future of the sector yesterday. And I met with the Federation of Small Businesses, the Confederation of British Industry and Chambers Wales this week as well. Actually, it's one of the points, on coming in to this post, that was made by business organisations themselves, that they felt that the nature of the relationship with the Welsh Government and wider stakeholders was stronger than it had ever been before, because of the way we had had to work together during the pandemic, because of the regular nature and exchange of information, and the ability to build on 20 years of trust in devolution, and the very concentrated pressures of the last two years. Where we've been honest and where we've disagreed as well as where we've agreed, we've always managed to improve the strength of our relationship. But I don't think our relationship is the point that I would say that we need to see improving, and we actually need some more certainty in an environment in which we're going to make choices. That's both on trade with our European partners and on investment choices. We talked earlier in Jack Sargeant's question about nuclear; we need not just ambition but actual choices to be made, and we definitely need certainty for our steel sector, which will be a crucial part of how we're able to take advantage of renewable energy, around our coastline in particular, and a range of other opportunities in advanced engineering and manufacturing.

The Newport Economy

John Griffiths AC: 2. What work is Welsh Government doing to support the economy in Newport by bringing employment to the city? OQ58348

Vaughan Gething AC: The Welsh Government will continue to work collaboratively with partners, such as the capital region, and, indeed, Newport City Council, to bring forward economic benefits to the area.

John Griffiths AC: Minister, thankfully, Newport enjoys many advantages in terms of economic development. I think its geographical position between the powerhouses of Bristol and Cardiff, and its communication advantages in terms of the rail system and the motorway, for example, are very important strengths. And being part of the capital region, and also the western gateway, cross-border, are very important indeed. I wonder if you could tell the Chamber, tell me, how Welsh Government will continue to work with those regional groupings to develop that work and make sure that it really does produce the sorts of dividends we all want to see for Newport and the surrounding area.

Vaughan Gething AC: I think one of the key aspects is the fact that, this side of the local authority elections, there is stability and continued leadership from Jane Mudd and her team, and that's important for us—about having trusted and stable partners. It's also their work as part of the wider capital region. We do see a future for high-quality jobs within the city, and there's a vision, again, that the council and the region have to be a part of delivering together with the Government. That partnership is really important. And, indeed, the economic framework for the region recognises opportunities within Newport, from digital technology, including the cyber sector, fintech and AI, life sciences, and of course the compound semiconductor cluster. I would like to see—again, thinking about a previous question—some certainty in the way that that cluster will be able to develop. So, a UK decision on Nexperia within the next 45 days would be most welcome, so that there's certainty about investment. That would also help us with choices across the western gateway area, where elected leaders here in the Welsh Government, and local authorities within the region, need to work with colleagues across the gateway because there is definitely a synergy of economic interest, and we look forward to playing a constructive part in that, with you, with your constituency colleague and neighbour, and, indeed, with the council and our colleagues in Westminster.

Natasha Asghar AS: Minister, I recently visited Newport docks to discuss the potential of a bid by Associated British Ports for a free port to be established in south Wales. As you know, in May, it was announced that the UK and Welsh Governments had come to an agreement to collaborate and deliver a new free port in Wales, backed by £26 million in UK Government funding to support the regeneration of communities by attracting new businesses and jobs and investment. Having met Michael Gove to discuss levelling-up in the United Kingdom, I explored the possibility of Associated British Ports making a bid for a free port based in Newport. Believe it or not, I actually did. For such a bid to succeed, it will require all stakeholders, namely ABP, local authorities and the Welsh Government, to work closely together in developing the best possible case for a south Wales free port.Minister, will you commit to working closely in partnership with these stakeholders to progress a bid, and what discussions have you already perhaps had with ministerial colleagues about bringing these new jobs and opportunities to Newport that you just spoke of? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Of course I'm aware of the announcement on free ports. I was the Welsh Government Minister who made that announcement with Michael Gove in his then role at the time. And that's because, from the noise that existed before, where the previous Secretary of State had regularly said a free port can't go ahead and it's the Welsh Government's fault, we eventually got the decision-making department in the UK Government talking directly to us. And we were able to move fairly rapidly then to have agreement on a joint prospectus for bids, where the Welsh Government and the UK Government will be co-decision makers. That includes things that are important to us like, if your remember, our agenda on fair work and environmental protection. So, that's important.
The challenge, though, is that, having secured agreement on funding parity for a free port, which was a previous sticking point, we now have a different Minister in post, in Greg Clark. And this is no point of aspersion about Mr Clark, but the reality is I don't think we're going to make all the progress we might otherwise have done, because I would be surprised if the UK Government were able to make decisions on this until the leadership contest within the Conservative Party is finished. In the interim, though, Welsh Government officials will continue to work with the UK Government to make progress on the work of what the prospectus would be like. That will mean talking with a range of stakeholders, a range of interested parties in the industry, but also trade union colleagues, and then we should be able to move, as soon as UK Government have the stability to match our own in the Welsh Government and they can make choices about the bidding prospectus.
I won't, of course, be involved in putting together individual bids, as I will be a decision maker in determining the bids coming from a range of areas in the country and I know there will be backers for different bids right across the geographic chamber.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. The Conservative spokesperson, Tom Giffard.

Tom Giffard AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi, Dirprwy Lywydd, and good afternoon to you, Deputy Minister. With the World Wrestling Entertainment Clash at the Castle event at the Principality Stadium just a few months away, I wanted to ask you about the state of professional wrestling in Wales. In April 2021, the all-party parliamentary group on wrestling in Westminster, chaired by the Pontypridd MP, Alex Davies-Jones, published their report into professional wrestling in Britain. The report found that the industry was not clearly defined as either sport or theatre, and therefore found huge problems in its lack of regulation as a result. It said health and safety standards were worryingly low in independent wrestling, and that insufficient protections and checks were in place for people who were fulfilling roles as coaches, particularly as it relates to minors due to its problematic classification between sport and theatre.We also saw, in June 2020, the Speaking Out movement, with a shockingly high number of young women who had been involved in professional wrestling sharing their stories about being abused by fellow wrestlers or coaches. So, the industry for too long at the independent level has been an unregulated wild west when it comes to safety and safeguarding, and the report makes a number of recommendations as to how to tackle them.I appreciate not all the recommendations will be devolved in the Welsh context, but much of it is. So, what steps have you taken, Deputy Minister, in the 15 months since that shocking report was published, to ensure that young people who choose to pursue a passion for professional wrestling are safe when they do so?

Dawn Bowden AC: Well, thank you for that question, Tom. And can I, first of all, just welcome the event of WWE coming here later this year? It's a huge event and it will be a massive boost to our economy. But you make a very good point, don't you, about the difference between sport and theatre, which, of course, covers—. I cover, in my portfolio, both of those areas. And I tend to look at WWE, in particular, as entertainment rather than sport. We don't see wrestling on that scale in the same way that we see sport. But you make a valid point about the report. I've not had any reports back to me from that report in terms of any particular concerns that we've had raised by professional wrestling in Wales. But I'm happy to look into that further and to come back to you with some views and recommendations that we might want to consider here in Wales. But I've had no concerns raised with me around those areas.

Tom Giffard AS: Okay. I'm grateful to you, Deputy Minister. Moving to a completely different arena, this time, a virtual one, I want to ask you about esports.

Dawn Bowden AC: Esports? Okay.

Tom Giffard AS: I recently met with John Jackson, who runs Esports Wales, who mentioned the esports Wales team will soon be competing in the Commonwealth Esports Championships, which, like the Commonwealth Games, are in Birmingham next month. I'm sure you'll be aware, Deputy Minister, of the huge economic and social benefits that esports provide. But one of the things that became very clear during the conversation we had was that these don't seem, like professional wrestling, to fit very neatly in your Government structures. They mentioned they're often passed between pillar and post, between Creative Wales and Sport Wales, when looking for funding. And, for an organisation that's run by volunteers, we should be setting up structures and removing as much bureaucracy as possible for those organisations to access the funding they need to continue the good work that they do. So, how is the Welsh Government supporting esports in Wales? And how are you making it easier for those organisations to access grant funding when they need it?

Dawn Bowden AC: Well, most of the funding for esports is through Creative Wales and that does continue. I'm also aware that we have a number of colleges, for instance, that develop esports games. I've got one in my own constituency. I actually sat down and played one particular sport—don't even ask me what it was—with JakeyBoyPro at Merthyr College, who was—[Interruption.] I know. Listen, I had so many brownie points from my kids you wouldn't believe, when I went back and said I'd played esports with JakeyBoyPro. But the point I'm making is there is a huge crossover: sport, entertainment, and, actually, education as well, because of the development of esports games. But, in terms of esport, we do have the crossover between Sport Wales and funding for the development of the professional aspect of that sport and the development of the creation of games. So, there isn't a single channel of funding, as there isn't for a lot of things that we do in my portfolio; there is a significant amount of crossover. But there is substantial funding available both on the development and on the professional aspect of esports.

Tom Giffard AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. And as this is my last question to you before our summer recess, can I wish you and your officials a very happy, and, hopefully, peaceful recess as well? And it's also the last number of questions to you before two key events: first of all team Wales in the Commonwealth Games, which I'm sure you'll join me in backing, and, second of all, whilst we won't be at the world cup in Qatar, because of the delay in it, we'll obviously be starting our preparations for that tournament later on in the year. But all of the athletes that I've spoken to mention the importance of good facilities in their areas to help them progress throughout their careers, and, unfortunately, in Wales, it's quite a patchy picture. The chief executive of the Football Association of Wales, as you'll know, has previously said, and I quote:
'our grass-roots facilities are absolutely disgraceful here. I'm really shocked by how bad the facilities are here. So, if you want to talk about accessibility, Wales is a shocker when it comes to facilities.'
End quote. So, as we know, with Wales participating in the world cup in Qatar, the FAW have announced an investment of £4 million in the grass-roots game, with the aim of improving facilities. But, given that they've previously said that up to £150 million of investment is needed to improve our facilities here in Wales, and the fact we want to capitalise on our qualification to the world cup, what further support can the Welsh Government provide to ensure that Wales is not just seen as a footballing nation now, but harnesses the potential of growth for the future?

Dawn Bowden AC: Well, can I thank Tom for those points, which are hugely important, and can I also add our best wishes to team Wales in Birmingham next month—or this month, actually; at the end of this month? I've had the huge pleasure of being involved in the kit distribution to our athletes. I've actually got my commonwealth badge, which is made of Clogau gold, would you believe. The kit distribution, the—what do they call it—the baton relay and so on—. So, we went to Holyhead to receive the baton relay. I don't think I saw you there, Rhun, did I? But, we saw the baton relay coming in from Ireland through to Holyhead, and then I had the pleasure of seeing the baton relay coming through my own constituency, starting in Aberfan, as well. So, good luck to team Wales, and obviously good luck to the team in Qatar in November—the world cup team in Qatar.
The issue of facilities is one that's come up time and time again, and I'm very aware of the views of the chief executive of the FAW. We are in regular contact with the FAW about how we can capitalise on the legacy that Wales being in the world cup is going to deliver for us. What I would say is our starting point is that we have put in the highest amount of capital investment in facilities that we have ever put through Sport Wales. So, over the next three years, we're seeing £24 million being invested in sports facilities across Wales.
But I think we also need to remember that sports facilitates are not just about the money that goes in through Sport Wales. We have to think about the amount of money that goes into multi-centre sporting facilities in our schools, for instance. So, if we look at the amount of investment that we've had in the twenty-first century schools programme and the current incarnation of that—again, in my own constituency, we have state-of-the-art sports facilities in many of those schools, and those all have to be added in to what we are delivering in terms of community sporting facilities.
I do agree with the chief executive of the FAW that we still have a long way to go in terms of all of those facilities, and I know that the FAW is working alongside other national governing bodies to develop and deliver sporting facilities that can be multi-use as well. So, if we are investing in new 3G pitches, for example, we shouldn't just be investing in football pitches, These should be multi-surface pitches that can accommodate rugby, hockey and other sports, and I know that the FAW are working with national governing bodies on that.
In terms of the £4 million invested by the FAW, or going to be invested by the FAW, that of course is to be welcomed, and that is money that is available to them because of the qualification, and it is the amount that they are able to deliver through the prize money that they have from qualifying for the world cup. We will continue to work with them and with other national governing bodies to see how we can develop those grass-roots facilities and how we can ensure that that legacy of our qualification for the world cup is followed through and delivers the community facilities that we so badly need.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Given that this is the last economy spokesperson's questions before the summer recess and that many of us will be engaging with the hospitality sector in one way or another, I thought we'd take a look at that sector.
The picture for hospitality continues to be fairly uncertain. As I'm sure the Minister is aware, not only have we had the shortages in staff, but the cost of living continues to take its toll. A recent report by Barclays Bank estimated that the cost-of-living crisis and staff shortages threaten £36 billion-worth of growth in the hospitality and leisure sector. Now, I do believe that the shortage is happening for several reasons, but if we could focus on one particular aspect of it for just a moment, industry representatives have called for Welsh Government to help address the skills shortage within the sector. Could the Minister outline what work the Government has done so far on this particular point?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, we've run a joint campaign with the sector for both recruitment and on looking at future skills needs. It's a regular point that's been raised with me, and, of course, the sector is quite diverse. You can go from high-end eating venues, for example, as part of the sector, to what would be a traditional venue within a locality and not at the same end. So, we recognise that this is also interlinked with other areas as well. There's an obvious interlinking between hospitality and tourism and the events strategy that we've just published today as well. I'd be more than happy to provide an update to the Chamber on the work we're doing in hospitality to deal with skills and the results of the joint campaign we've run with them throughout this year.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that answer, Minister, and I'd very much appreciate an update on that front. Of course, as I mentioned, there are several reasons for the shortage of staff in hospitality. From experience, wages in hospitality need to improve, their work-life balance element needs to improve, security of work, and, as well, workplace conditions need to improve, as we've seen in the recent Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairscommittee report on hospitality. Now, the sector has a desire to professionalisecareers within it, but it believes that the Government has a role to play in helping them to achieve this. I think it's important to emphasise that, overall, the hospitality sector is a great sector to work in. I had a good time working in the sector myself. I'm still in contact with many of the friends I made in the sector, and of course there are a number of transferrable skills. Most useful for me has been public speaking. I've said it countless times already, but if you can work on a bar on a rugby day in Cardiff and be called all sorts of things then I think you can definitely get up in the Chamber and be heckled by Members. But, on a serious note, there is a need for a culture change in the sector, so I would be interested to hear from the Minister where he thinks the Government can come in on this.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, I think it's actually about working alongside the sector to try to design it in exactly the same way we have done with the retail sector, where we've actually got a strategy. That may not be what they want to do, but to understand what they're asking and to be honest with them about what we can do together with them. As I say, we've been promoting careers—not just seasonal work, but careers—in hospitality, together with the sector, and, you're right, there is an impression that the work isn't as well remunerated as it could be, and there is a challenge around work-life balance. I've got a brother who is a chef. I have always been very happy to eat his food, but, in the time that I've worked in and around the sector, there is a challenge about that balance. That's been accelerated again by the pandemic, and it's one of the reasons why there has been a challenge recruiting into it. People have thought again about what they want. Most of us want to be able to go out and enjoy the hospitality sector as customers, but we actually need to have people in the sector working to a high standard for us to be able to enjoy. And part of the message, I think, here is about all of us and our constituents actually looking at people who work in that sector not as people who should be having anything thrown at them, verbally or otherwise, when at work, but actually to show some kindness. The whole world is struggling with staff shortages, so we should be kind and decent to the people who have shown up and are working so that we can actually enjoy a significant part of our life too. But I'm more than happy to commit again, not just in the meetings I've had, but to work with the sector and my officials to look at the challenges over wages, what the message is from the sector, the challenge over work-life balance, the points about certainty and what we can do to have a thriving hospitality sector, because, as I say, it underpins a range of other sectors within the wider economy.

The 2022 FIFA World Cup

Heledd Fychan AS: 3. Will the Minister provide an update on the Welsh Government’s work to promote Welsh trade and investment globally following the Cymru men’s football team's qualification for the 2022 World Cup? OQ58345

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. We are actively working with a number of partners in the UK, Qatar and elsewhere in the world to maximise trade and investment opportunities for Wales from the 2022 FIFA men's world cup.

Heledd Fychan AS: At last week's Wales international cross-party group, concerns were raised that progress has been slow in putting together the much-needed team Cymru to maximise the opportunities presented by Cymru being part of the world cup. It was stated by many attendees that it was unclear who is leading and how organisations and businesses will be involved and supported to be involved, that no key and high-level objectives have yet been set, and that it is unclear what investment is being made by both the Welsh Government and the UK Government to ensure opportunities are not missed. Worryingly, reference was made to the GREAT campaign and how Cymru would be able to benefit from this, which would go against everything that the Football Association of Wales has done in developing awareness about our distinct identity as a nation. With every day that passes, we miss crucial opportunities for Wales if we don't get this right. As Laura McAllister rightly warned, it would be unforgivable to let this opportunity pass us by. What assurances can the Minister provide to alleviate the concerns raised, and when will we receive an update about the team, resource and objectives put in place, and will these be in place prior to the recess?

Vaughan Gething AC: Yes, in terms of the work that we're doing, of course, it's a relatively recent timescale. Work has been done and anticipated in advance, but until the fantastic occasion at the Cardiff City Stadium when we sealed qualification, we couldn't be certain about where we'd be, and the FAW in particular were keen not to be visibly acting as if we'd already qualified before we had. Actually, in the trade mission, the in-person trade mission, I led to Qatar, it was really helpful to have direct contacts in the UK embassy there, and they've been really clear that they want to be part of supporting all UK nations who qualify, and that's been really helpful. So, we have links there on the ground, but also the GREAT campaign that you mention is both an opportunity and a risk. I would want to see UK Government funds benefitting Wales as they're spent, and the GREAT campaign can't be simply England in another name. England have qualified in their own right, and I look forward to being there to see Wales beat them at the end of our group phase, but we have to be clear that the GREAT campaign is supposed to be about all the constituent parts of Britain, and so that's one of our challenges. So, we are engaging with the UK Government around that.
We're really clear that we don't want to get drawn into something that subsumes our identity, and the projection and the opportunity that this presents, into a wider campaign that doesn't meet our own objectives. That's about the work we want to do within the region itself, but it's also about the ability to project Wales on a world stage, following the WWE event in September here in Cardiff. That's largely because of the ability to have a focus on Wales in a very large market where there's more opportunity for Wales to gain. The fact that our first game is against the USA in the group stage is, actually, a really important opportunity for us. So, it's not just about physically in the region, it's about the world stage too.
I can confirm that the First Minister has asked me to lead work across the Government on delivering and developing a plan with our stakeholders, the FAW and wider. So, I'll be more than happy to update the Chamber on the work of that group, and the increased pace in the work that we're going to need to do over the summer and, indeed, in the few months leading up to our entry onto the world stage in the finals for the first time in 64 years.

Peter Fox AS: I thank Heledd Fychan for bringing forward her question. The world cup is an ideal opportunity to promote Wales on the global stage, but let's look at that global stage a little wider. The Welsh Government has 21 international offices and all have a remit to attract inward investment. However, it is questionable how effective these have been in securing new opportunities for Welsh businesses; for example, the majority of these offices only have one or two members of staff and I think we only have about a £750,000 network budget. If you square that up, it's about £35,000 per global office.
I just wondered, Minister, what assessment you've made of the effectiveness of our overseas offices in driving forward trade for Welsh businesses. What consideration have you given to providing additional resources to help expand the capacity of those offices? It's so important that we promote Wales on that global stage and do it effectively, and not piecemeal. It is really important that we make progress, and I just wondered what specific plans the Government has to boost the role of the international office in Doha, Qatar, in light of the upcoming world cup in that country. Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, it's helpful that I've visited the region twice now, and our office in Doha is working through a range of areas. Whilst we don't have huge numbers of staff in our offices, it's a matter of fact that seven of the countries that have qualified for the men's world cup finals have Welsh Government offices within them. I think we punch above our weight where those offices are based, partly because, on the ground, away from the headline politics of some of the continuing differences that we will have with the political direction of the UK Government, there are very good relationships between the embassy and the Department for International Trade teams in each of those countries. I saw that for myself when I was in the United Arab Emirates and, indeed, in Qatar as well.
I think part of our challenge is one of the points that you made at the end: how effective can we be in taking advantage of the opportunity that exists? To date, I can honestly tell you that I've been really impressed with the range of contacts that we've managed to deliver and what that means for Welsh businesses. You don't need to take my word for it; if you talk to food and drink businesses in the middle east region, they're very positive and complimentary about the work the Welsh Government has done alongside them to open up new markets. If you talk to those businesses that have gone on trade missions, they again will say that the work that our offices do is real and significant.
I should, as my colleague has entered the Chamber, recognise that much of that comes from the international strategy that Eluned Morgan put together when she was in a previous ministerial role. I do think we'll see a real benefit from that, not just in the coming months, but in the much longer term as well.

Question 4 [OQ58351] has been withdrawn, so question 5, Rhys ab Owen.

The Economic Impact of Brexit

Rhys ab Owen AS: 5. What assessment has the Welsh Government made of the economic impact of Brexit on Wales? OQ58339

Vaughan Gething AC: The Welsh economy broadly tracks that of the UK quite closely. The UK Government's Office for Budget Responsibility's current estimate is that Brexit has so far reduced UK gross domestic product by about 1.5 per cent, with a further reduction of 2.5 per cent still to come. The European Union will continue to be the UK's closest and most important trading partner, and our ambition should be to have the closest possible, frictionless trade with the EU.

Rhys ab Owen AS: Diolch yn fawr, Gweinidog. Brexit is not working for Wales. It has cost us and the UK billions in lost trade and lost tax revenue; GDP is down, investment is down and goods trade is down. With the highest inflation since the mid1970s, with the cost-of-living crisis biting the people in our communities, the current position of the Welsh Government and Labour in Westminster is not tenable. Gweinidog, we're in the season of leadership contests now. There will be one soon here. Will you make an early pitch, Gweinidog, that Wales will be rejoining the single market?

Vaughan Gething AC: There is no vacancy in the First Minister's office, and there won't be for the foreseeable future. Look, when it comes to the reality of our position, I have indicated there's been a reduction in trade, and Wales has a greater amount of trade compared to other nations within Britain with the EU, so it's a bigger challenge for us. And I am engaged in some of the contradictory and unhelpful policy agendas within the UK Government on borders and our continued trade, and it's important. I want to see our current position work as well as possible. I would have preferred it—and it's a matter of public record—if we had not left the European Union, but people in Wales, as within the rest of the UK, voted to leave, and we have to try to address that with the least amount of harm possible, and where there are opportunities to try to take those, it will require some honesty from us about what that would mean. Whilst we have articles of faith at a UK Government level on what we can't do, that does create a real challenge for us, but I hope that there will be an attack of common sense and economic common sense around what sort of relationship we should have with the European Union, because that in itself would unlock some of the challenges that we know that we face today.

Altaf Hussain AS: Minister, the Welsh Centre for Public Policy report 'Brexit and Wales'
'recommends that the Welsh Government guides businesses through the new regulations; encourages retraining and job creation in the customs sector to meet increased demand; maintains emergency funding for sectors affected by border delays; and continually monitors the impacts on Welsh ports.'
Does the Minister accept these recommendations' function, and if so, what progress can he report? Thank you.

Vaughan Gething AC: We've always recognised that having left the European Union, the ability to trade would still be there, but there would be additional barriers to it. The challenge in the form of having left the European Union is that there are more barriers than would otherwise have needed to be the case. What we're still trying to do is to encourage businesses to continue that trade, to continue to want to be exporters. That's why we have a £4 million programme to support exports in the economy. I was delighted to see BBC Wales recently reporting on exporting success stories, including one within my own constituency. The challenge, though, is that it has put off a number of businesses from exporting.
I recently met with small businesses within my own constituency and the Federation of Small Businesses, and there was very direct and honest engagement around some of the challenges they are facing in both bringing goods in and in exporting as well. I had a similar position explained to me by both Chambers Wales and the Confederation of British Industry Wales as well, so there are definitely additional costs that have been introduced. Our challenge is how we'll continue to support businesses, both to raise awareness of what they will need to do and the extra costs that may bring, but still to encourage them to want to be successful exporting businesses, because that should still help to grow the Welsh economy and good-quality jobs.

Jane Dodds AS: Good afternoon, Minister. Can I continue the theme of leaving the European Union? Just looking at the Conservatives' undercooked Brexit of a meal, I wanted to focus on the UK Government-introduced controls around the high-risk imports of animals, animal products, plants and plant products. Some industry representatives have warned that these controls would significantly increase costs on UK food companies, possibly to the tune of hundreds of millions of pounds. Those costs will obviously be passed on to the consumers. Could you provide an update for us, please, Minister, on what representations you have been making to the UK Government about militating against those costs to businesses, to prevent the cost being passed on to our already hard-pressed households? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, the First Minister has indicated several times in this Chamber the recent evidence on the direct impact that Brexit has had on food costs in any event, the challenges for both import and export for food and drink businesses in the UK in particular, and it's been a regular feature in the conversations around borders and trade that I have had most recently in a rather frustrating conversation with Michael Ellis, the Cabinet Office Minister, and that's about the reality of where we're going with the programme. It means that businesses who want to export from Wales to the island of Ireland, for example, have checks in place on the goods, whereas, actually, goods coming the other way don't at present. That may mean that those goods are cheaper, but it puts our own businesses at a disadvantage.
And one of the challenges that we have is that, having left the European Union, we no longer get the advantage we previously had of having early sight of risks to biosecurity. That means we're more vulnerable, particularly as the destination checks currently taking place are taking place in less than 5 per cent of those goods that are coming in. That means that there is a risk for us in any event. And when we were within the European Union, we still had the ability to introduce additional checks as members as well. So, we're carrying a number of risks, both to biosecurity and, indeed, there's a competitive disadvantage for food and drink businesses in particular in the current arrangements. And I would hope, as I say, that common sense will ultimately prevail to make sure that Welsh businesses are able to export and import on a much more level playing field with colleagues in European countries.

Alun Davies AC: Minister, I agree very much with the premise of the question that Brexit has been enormously damaging to the Welsh economy. I also agree, for the record, and I presume the Minister does, although I won't put him in the situation of asking him this, that he disagrees with leaving the single market and the current position of the UK Labour Party. But it's important, I think, that we recognise, we understand and we describe the economic damage being wrought on this country, our communities and our people by Brexit and by decisions being taken by the United Kingdom Government. Will the Minister give an undertaking that the Welsh Government will publish, at least twice a year, but I'd prefer every term, an analysis of the damage being wrought on the Welsh economy by Brexit, and how the Welsh Government is responding to that damage? Because we need to understand the dimensions of the problems we are facing at the moment if we are to articulate ways of addressing them.

Vaughan Gething AC: I don't think I could agree with the way in which the point is phrased, because it comes at it from a certain point of view. But I think something about how regularly we update the Chamber and members of the wider public on the realities of our changed trading position is a fair one. It's why I referenced, in responding to Rhys ab Owen at the start, the OBR's own assessment—so, not a Welsh Government body, but a body created by the UK Government. It's their assessment that us leaving the European Union on the terms on which we left have shrunk the UK economy, with more to come. And I think, as well as presenting that, we'd also want to try to explain what we are doing to try to support the economy in that. I'll happily give some thought to how we do that, because it comes up on a relatively regular basis in a range of different forms: the statements I've had to give on borders, the work we're having to do on that; there's more about the challenges and the changed funding arrangements, and how likely it is we'll be able to be associated with Horizon as well, which will have a significant impact. So, I will give some thought to how we can usefully do that, and that may well help not just the Chamber, but Members in their relevant scrutiny committees as well.

Economic Priorities for Preseli Pembrokeshire

Paul Davies AC: 6. What are the Welsh Government's economic priorities for Preseli Pembrokeshire for the next 12 months? OQ58334

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. Our priorities continue to be to support new and existing businesses through Business Wales services and the regional team. We have provided extensive support through the pandemic and the post-Brexit trading world. We are committed to delivering a greener, more equal and prosperous economy for all parts of Wales.

Paul Davies AC: Thank you for that response, Minister. It's vital that the Welsh Government works with local authorities, and indeed stakeholders, to identify skills and capacity deficits in local areas in order to meet shifting market demands. You may be aware that EDF Renewables UK, DP Energy and Pembrokeshire College have collaborated to deliver a course called DestinationRenewables, which prepares students for future jobs in the renewable energy sector. Minister, what is the Welsh Government doing to support this type of collaboration in Pembrokeshire, so that it can help build a workforce that meets future skills needs? And what investment is the Welsh Government making in sectors like renewable energy, so that we can start to develop Wales's expertise in this particular sector?

Vaughan Gething AC: Well, the example you've given is an example of what we need to see more of, with industry working together with the institutions that we fund—the college, for example, the funding it will receive through Welsh Government—but it also, I think, points to the point on needing more clarity and certainty for investors to make those choices. When I've recently been in Pembrokeshire, talking to one of the businesses with a significant interest in our renewables future, they have made this point. It's a regular part of the conversations we have. I met the Crown Estate, together with Julie James the Minister for Climate Change, and again making the point that a greater level of certainty and a forward-looking programme would allow greater investor confidence to make longer term investments that will benefit infrastructure in our ports and the jobs that come from it on the manufacture side as well. You'll see it from the point of view of the skills that we think we're going to need and how we're going to be able to help people to do more of that when we get to the net-zero skills plan that we're expecting to publish this autumn. I think you've asked me questions on that in the past. So, these things are all connected. If we get this right, then there really is a significant economic return to be made for Wales, not just the wider benefit of having cleaner, greener power. I look forward to updating the Member and the Chamber on that work.

Question 7 [OQ58342] is withdrawn. Question 8, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Holyhead's Economy

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: 8. What assessment has the Minister made of the importance of re-establishing a marina in Holyhead to the town's economy? OQ58343

Vaughan Gething AC: Diolch. The Welsh Government is a long-standing partner, alongside Ynys Môn county council, the port authority and other partners, in seeking a sustainable economic future for Holyhead. We collectively commissioned a wide-ranging study into the potential economic benefits of Holyhead Gateway, as well as awarding funding following the 2018 storm.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: It's over four years now since storm Emma devastated the marina in Holyhead. The marina's owners did set about a plan to rebuild immediately, and although it was inevitable that that was going to take some time, the plans are being frustrated by the fact that there's another development that's long been in the pipeline for the waterfront in Holyhead that also includes plans for a marina. I think that that developer, Conygar, if it wants to show that it is interested in doing what's right for Holyhead, should be doing everything to facilitate and bring forward the re-establishment of a marina as quickly as possible—whoever does that. Can I appeal to the Government to be clear in its support for the marina, in particular? Can I ask the Minister to consider what practical and financial support it can give? And, in light of that current frustration, is the Welsh Government ready to play a part in bringing the different parties together, working with local stakeholders, including myself, the local authority and so on, to find a resolution as soon as possible?

Vaughan Gething AC: I think the broad answer to the question is 'yes'. We want to be able to play a part. Often, the Welsh Government convening conversations can mean everyone comes to the table, and that can be helpful. We want to see stakeholders as joined up as possible on the opportunities that exist. If the Member wants to write to me, that would be helpful. I am meeting the leader of the council over the summer and it will be helpful to have a proposal to discuss with our north Wales team and how that may fit into the wider regional plan. I think this isn't just for the island itself—actually, there's a potential impact on a wider basis too.

A Community Bank for Wales

Cefin Campbell MS: 9. What benefits will the establishment of a community bank for Wales bring to mid and west Wales? OQ58353

Vaughan Gething AC: Thank you. The vision for the community bank, now being taken forward by our partners the Monmouthshire Building Society, is that it will be a full-service bank headquartered in Wales and will provide bilingual products and banking services through a range of channels, including phone, digital and physical outlets.

Cefin Campbell MS: Thank you very much for that answer. Last month, Barclays bank announced that it was closing branches across the region, including Welshpool, Newtown and Lampeter. This has become a very common pattern over recent years. Indeed, there are about 40 per cent fewer branches that now exist in the region I represent than there were nine years ago. The impact of this is very great on our rural communities, including the elderly people, small businesses and organisations and farmers in the area. The situation is now so critical that several market towns in the region, among them Llanidloes, Tregaron and Llandovery, have now gained the status of 'no-bank towns'. And online banking, of course, is difficult because there is a lack of reliable broadband. You've noted your intention to establish a community bank for Wales; could I ask you: are the rural communities of Wales going to have fair play in these new plans?

Vaughan Gething AC: The vision for the community bank is one that's got support on all sides of the Chamber, and that in itself is relatively unusual. The challenge, though, I think, is in having not just the vision, but then being able to do something where we're able to provide real-life banking services that people will want and will use, and also that we're able to have a programmeof opening the physical branches that matches the actual capability. I think there's a danger that every Member will say, 'I would like to have a community bank branch in my constituency or my region'. I've certainly had representations on my own side from a range of people, from Jack Sargeant, Joyce Watson and a range of others. We want to see the bank be successful, and we want to see those services increase. The reason why we're at this point is exactly the point the Member's articulated: traditional banks have been moving away from a range of communities, both in towns and cities as well as in rural parts of Wales. This is our attempt to make sure we have a viable banking product that will try to fill in some of that gap. I am looking forward to providing a further update, together with the Monmouthshire Building Society, on how that work is practically progressing. But I do take on board the points the Member makes.

And the last question to the Minister today, question 10, Delyth Jewell.

Trade Policy

Delyth Jewell AC: 10. How is the Minister working to ensure that the Welsh Government's commitment to global responsibility is incorporated into its trade policy? OQ58361

Vaughan Gething AC: Rather than viewing trade policy solely in economic terms, our approach relies on using a well-being of future generations lens to consider the full impact that trade policy could have on Wales. This includes ensuring that our approach aligns with our national well-being goal of being a globally responsible nation.

Delyth Jewell AC: Thank you for that, Minister. The Welsh Government's commitment to global responsibility is a welcome move, especially in terms of biodiversity, climate change, sustainable economic development and employment rights when it comes to trade policy. There are, however, other less tangible impacts of global trade on the lives of people across the world. These international trade deals affect cultures, traditions, identities and languages in every country involved, often in negative or exploitative ways. Our conscience has to stretch as far as the limits of those supply chains, or else that commitment to global responsibility won't be fully met. So, Minister, how is the Welsh Government ensuring that its trade policy is globally responsible when it comes to the impact on culture, languages and ways of life for citizens in other nations?

Vaughan Gething AC: We do try to take a rounded approach to the way in which we promote and support Welsh businesses as exporters and, indeed, importers as well. It's part of the reason why we've been concerned about some of the impact of some of the trade deals that have already been agreed, for example their impact on the rural economy here. You'll have heard the First Minister saying that one of the challenges would be a potential influx of other goods, which could mean that rural Wales is no longer part of what we understand it could and should be.
When it comes to our impact on trade in other parts of the world, we again try to take account of that in the sorts of trade deals that we do and what we do in terms of our support as a Government. You'll recall, for example, that some parts of the petrochemical industry would rather we carried on going to some of the international events; we've chosen not to do that, because we're switching much more of our support into advanced manufacture, engineering and, indeed, in wanting to secure more opportunities in the renewables sector, both here in Wales and further afield. So, rather than the broad point, I think it might be more helpful to think about some of those individual questions about who we do business with as countries and nations, but also the sorts of firms we're looking to support in making sure that they're able to grow the economy here and in other parts of the world.

I thank the Minister.

2. Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

The next item is questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services, and the first question is from Sam Rowlands.

The Health Service in North Wales

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. I note the Minister's just getting to her place there.

Sam Rowlands MS: 1. Sut mae'r Gweinidog yn ystyried llais cleifion er mwyn llywio penderfyniadau ar flaenoriaethau ar gyfer y gwasanaeth iechyd yng ngogledd Cymru? OQ58358

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr. Decisions on priorities for the health service in north Wales are for Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board. They take into account the needs of their local population, and that's informed by the work of the regional partnership boards, which include citizen panels. Welsh Government officials meet regularly with representatives from all community health councils in Wales, including North Wales Community Health Council.

Sam Rowlands MS: Thank you, Minister, for your response and also for outlining your interactions with patients through the community health councils, as you mentioned, and how important their voice is. A crucial place for this voice in the future, of course, is the newly appointed citizen voice board, and as you'll know, this board has the opportunity to stand up for the people of north Wales—Wales as a whole, but north Wales especially—considering the number of issues at Betsi Cadwaladr health board that patients are dealing with at the moment. But my understanding, Minister, is that just one of the newly appointed board members actually lives in north Wales, with, actually, them not being from the area, having worked and lived elsewhere for the vast majority of their time. I also understand, Minister, that six of the board members went to the same university, where the current chair of the board was vice-chancellor. You can perhaps understand why some of my residents are concerned that perhaps there isn't proper representation, a broad representation across Wales, and, in particular, in north Wales. So, Minister, do you believe that if we are to have a true representation and to maximise the potential of this new board, and, ultimately, take the voice of patients seriously, it needs to be rooted in north Wales with strong north Wales representatives who live, work and understand north Wales and all its nuances? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Let's just be clear that the board is not supposed to be a geographic representation. If we started that, then it would be very difficult to get representation from the whole of Wales. [Interruption.] I will carry on. I've had the pleasure of speaking to Dr Rajan Madhok. He is somebody who retired to Wales four years ago. He's had an incredibly sparkling career. He's been a medical doctor of public health, he's been a director of a primary care trust, he's been the chairman of the British Association of Physicians of Indian Origin, he's been on the General Medical Council, and he's had experience working in Shetland. I didn't know there was a qualification period to become Welsh. Is that something the Tories are advocating now? Let's just be absolutely clear that this man will be an incredible representative. And do you know what's more? I spoke to him in Welsh.

NHS Dental Services in Arfon

Siân Gwenllian AC: 2. Will the Minister provide an update on the position of dental services provided through the NHS in Arfon? OQ58352

Eluned Morgan AC: With the north Wales dental academy being established in autumn 2022, and with 96 per cent of NHS dentistry funding inBetsiCadwaladr University Health Board going to practices engaged in contract reform, I expect to see significant improvements in patient access in north Wales in the near future.

Siân Gwenllian AC: I'm very pleased to hear that, because many constituents in Arfon are contacting me about the lack of provision. There's an increasing number who can't register with an NHS dentist, including children, and there is no space with dentists across north Wales. The emergency service is also under pressure, with one patient claiming to have tried to contact the emergency number over 200 times in one day, and others claiming that they've been hanging on the telephone for three hours before being answered. I could go on and on, listing more and more of these problems that are being reported to me. I am pleased that there is some light at the end of the tunnel for these patients now, but can you give us a timeline on the development of the academy in Bangor and when you think we will see substantial change in the situation in my constituency?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. The situation is a very difficult one in terms of dentistry across Wales. Of course, we're still in a situation where COVID has affected services. We were down to 50 per cent until very recently, we're now back up to about 80 per cent, and, of course, a lot of people want to see a dentist after waiting for so long.
In terms of the new academy, I'm very pleased that the new academy will open in Bangor in the autumn of this year, and once it's fully established, we would expect to see access for 12,000 to 15,000 people. That will be open six days a week. So, that will make a significant difference.
But in the short term, the health board has created more access for people who find themselves in an urgent situation, and they have created access for those who find themselves without a dentist in the case of an emergency.

Mark Isherwood AC: Of course, this isn't new. Before the pandemic, constituents were contacting me about the lack of NHS dentists in Arfon. As one stated in 2019,
'Both my daughter and myself have been without a dentist now for well over a year. Please is there anything you can do to resolve this problem regarding the lack of NHS dentists in Bangor and further afield?'
I wrote to you last August on behalf of a constituent who stated,
'I'm writing to draw your attention to the drastic lack of NHS dentistry in north-west Wales. Over the last few years, I've been a member of four different dental practices, all in or around my home in the city of Bangor. All four have either closed or stopped treating NHS patients.'
In your reply, you stated that
'Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board are well advanced in their plans to establish a new north Wales dental academy in Bangor, which will provide an opportunity for the health board to significantly increase dental provision, improving access to NHS dental services',
which you referred to in your initial reply, and that you were making good progress with the recovery of dental services. But half a year on, the leader of the opposition raised with the First Minister the case of a teacher in Bangor, who found it impossible to find a new NHS dentist—

You need to ask your question now, please.

Mark Isherwood AC: —when his current dentist stopped carrying out NHS treatments and there was a minimum two-year waiting list. People are in pain now. It's great that relief is coming down the road, but what are you doing about it for the people who need it now?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. I'm spending a heck of a lot of time on this, I've got to tell you. We have a new chief dental officer, and I think he's really trying to grasp the situation, and he understands the severity of the situation. It's not a situation that's unique to Wales, it's an issue that is a challenge across the whole of the United Kingdom. We are actually further ahead than they are in England in terms of the new contract and we hope that that will provide 112,000 new opportunities for patient access, and I think that will be significant. In north Wales, in terms of the contract, 96 per cent of the practices have signed up to that new contract. So, it will be a change in the way that dentists approach this issue, but we do hope that that will make a difference. And, of course, we're really focused now also on training up more dental therapists and that's what the Bangor academy is all about.

Questions Without Notice from Party Spokespeople

Questions now from the party spokespeople. Conservative spokesperson, Russell George.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Deputy Llywydd. Minister, like you, I was listening to the exchange between the leader of the opposition and the First Minister yesterday in regard to waiting times and that's a line of questioning I want to continue today. Can you confirm that the number of people waiting longer than two years for NHS treatment in Wales has increased by nearly 900 per cent in the past year?

Eluned Morgan AC: What I can tell you is the number of people waiting for two years actually reduced in the latest figures that came out just a few weeks ago. They reduced by 3.4 per cent. So, I think that shows that, actually, we're heading in the right direction. Obviously, we'll have more figures coming out next week, which will demonstrate to us whether that change has continued. Obviously, we've got to take account of the fact that COVID is not over, and the very fact that we still have almost 2,000 people off sick because of COVID or COVID-related issues means that, actually, the challenge is still there. And so, of course, we've got to plan. The difficulty, of course, is that if you keep on getting these waves, we're going to be knocked back. But I was actually very heartened by the fact that, for the first time, we saw those figures coming down in the last month.

Russell George AC: Thanks for the answer, Minister, and whilst, of course, it's good news that that waiting time for a one-month period is coming down, but the long-term sustained trajectory is in the wrong direction of course. So, if we look back at 12 months ago, the figure was 7,600 and now it's 68,000. So, those are the figures over the last 12 months. And the numbers have, sadly, sky-rocketed in that period. Despite what you say, the numbers have sky-rocketed. And, of course, I also agree with you: there is the issue of COVID and the pandemic—that has affected NHS services right across the UK and right across the world. But what we have seen here is a much worse position, and I would say that that's as a result of mismanagementfrom the Government and that's why we're seeing massive underperformance here in Wales. Because a number of people in Wales, many of whom are sadly waiting in pain on a waiting list that is five times—five times—higher than the whole of England, and that's taking into account the much larger population in England—. We have got five times the figure of people waiting on our waiting list here than in England.On top of that, the average waiting time here is 10 weeks longer than that of England. And one in four Welsh patients are waiting over a year for treatment; that, in England, is one in 20. Now, I appreciate, Minister—

You need to ask the question, please.

Russell George AC: I appreciate, Minister, your personal commitment, and I appreciate you've only been in post for 12 months, and I appreciate you've been dealt a poor hand. But can I ask you for your assessment of why the Welsh Government is looking at this much worse position than that in any other part of the UK? And surely you've got to recognise failures to understand where improvements need to be made.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much. Well, Russell will be aware that the figures have gone up everywhere in the past year; this is not a unique situation—they've sky-rocketed everywhere. And, of course, we're all challenged now, in terms of getting those lists down, and that's why we did publish our planned care proposal back in April, where the targets are very, very clearly set out. I can tell you that I'm having regular meetings with the chairs of the health boards, just to underline the importance of hitting those targets. You will be aware that the way we count our lists is very significantly different from the way they count in England. So, we include the number of people waiting for diagnostic treatment and therapies—that's a significant number of people. So, you're comparing apples and pears here, and it is important that people understand that. We also include follow-up appointments after diagnostic tests. And if you transfer between one consultant and another, we start a new pathway, so that's counted again. So, yes, sometimes we don't help ourselves, if I'm honest. So, that is difficult, and I've obviously asked if we can look at the way we count, but it's a major, major issue to change the way we count. And to be quite honest, I just think we're being more transparent with the public about the reality of the situation, in a way that I'm afraid your Conservative Government in England is not being transparent.

Russell George AC: Well, no, the fact is that in Wales we have 68,000 people waiting for over two years, and in England it's 12,700. That's what the figures say. Now, I do appreciate—

Eluned Morgan AC: You're not counting half of them, that's why.

Russell George AC: —what you've just said. I do appreciate what you've just said, and you're willingness to look at the way you measure those figures, because perhaps it would be the correct piece of work for the Government to undertake, to make that comparison. Because what would those figures then be able to tell us? They would be able to tell us we're still in the same position—that the Welsh Government is in a much worse significant position. Now, what would help, of course, the backlog, and reducing the backlog, would be the roll-out of regional surgical hubs, which we called for back in summer 2020. I've spoken to a number of health bodies and professionals this week, telling us we've still not got them in Wales, we're still waiting for them, and that is the way out, in part, of the position that we're in. And I know, Minister, you've made promises that they're going to be rolled out, but we're yet to see them being delivered. And until this is addressed, we're not going to see and not going to escape the waiting lists that we're currently in. The UK Government started to prepare for the post-pandemic at a much, much earlier stage. In fact, your predecessor said it would be foolish to do the same here. So, do you regret the words of your predecessor, when he said—and it demonstrates, I think, an attitude of complacency—that it would be foolish to start the planned care out of pandemic before the pandemic was over? And do you not accept as well that, in order to make progress, we've got to see the roll-out of regional surgical hubs at a much quicker pace, and that is part of the way out of this problem that we're in? And can you give us an update on regional surgical hubs?

Eluned Morgan AC: Well, as you know, I'm very keen to see the development of regional surgical hubs. I am restricted by the amount of capital funding that we've been given by the UK Government—that's what's tying my hands at the moment. And let me tell you that we are already initiating these; you'll have seen yesterday that we are centralising and having one of these surgical hubs, for vascular services, in south Wales. So, it's already happening. There are lots of examples already of this happening in orthopaedic areas and in eye cataract operations. You've seen what's happened in Cardiff; there is another regional centre in Swansea. So, these already exist. Now, how many more can we do? Obviously, we're very interested in seeing how many more, but we are restricted and restrained at the moment by our capital abilities. But let me tell you that we had a discussion with the Royal College of Surgeons recently, and what they were keen for us to do, and what I've been pressing the health boards to do, is to make sure that we use the existing capacity more efficiently, and I think we've still got some headway to make on that.

Plaid Cymru spokesperson, Rhun ap Iorwerth.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much, Diprwy Lywydd. I want to focus on long COVID. Recent figures by the Office for National Statisticssuggest that some 60,000 people in Wales could be living with long COVID, and the wave we're currently in makes me concerned that the numbers will increase. Now, many of those suffering are people who acquired the virus whilst working in health and care services. Since the beginning of this month, those who fell ill early during the pandemic are not now paid in full, whilst they are in similar health roles in England and Scotland. Does the Minister agree that health boards should use the discretion that I understand that they have to continue to pay full salaries until they've done everything within their gift to bring these workers who do want to serve within our health services back into post where they can do that?

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much, and it is true that there are many people who are suffering from long COVID. I was speaking to a mother yesterday who was talking to me about her son who suffers from long COVID, and I think it is important that we do recognise that this is a very difficult situation, particularly for those who have served us all during the pandemic. And that's why we have been very careful in this area, in trying to ensure that we have spoken to the unions before we moved forward, and that everyone understands that there are exceptions that are possible, and that the health board can use their discretion, and I would suggest that they do take that opportunity.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'm very pleased to hear that, and I do hope that Members here, in representing their constituents, will remind their health boards in their constituencies and regions that they have that discretion.
I'm also pleased to hear the Minister mention long COVID and its impact on children particularly. I am concerned that there is a lack of support for children and young people with long COVID. I've spoken to a number of parents—one who said that they'd had to wait five months for a referral, and had had to go private to a paediatrician, and paid hundreds of pounds per month for a chiropractor to give some comfort to her son. The Long Covid Kids organisation say that it's still difficult to get professional health workers, doctors and so on, to accept that what's in front of them is actually long COVID.
So, can the Minister tell us what research the Welsh Government is willing to commission and invest into long COVID, and its impact on children and young people particularly, and what can be done to ensure that that support is available for children and young people, because they will be left behind because of the time it is happening in their life cycle?

Eluned Morgan AC: You are quite right, and I think that we have to be very careful. The impact on children is something that's going to affect them for a long time if we don't deal with this issue at an early stage. We will be having an update on the recovery before long, and I've asked to ensure that we do consider children as we look at how that programme proceeds. And you're aware that, as we develop that plan, it is something that we wanted to see changing as we learn more about the virus and about the way in which people are suffering.
The fact that we are still, every six months, having an opportunity to look again at what's happening does give us an opportunity to look at what you've pointed out today.

Question 3 [OQ58355] has been withdrawn. Question 4, Joel James.

Symptoms of Brain Tumours

Joel James MS: 4. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to increase awareness of the signs and symptoms of brain tumours? OQ58340

Eluned Morgan AC: Thank you very much. Our programme for transforming and modernising planned care, published in April, included a commitment to continue to promote key messages about cancer symptoms and to encourage people to come forward with suspected cancer. We're also happy to support and amplify messages from cancer charities in Wales.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Minister. As you are aware, holistic needs assessments are provided to brain cancer patients as a way of them identifying and communicating to their key workers their holistic needs and allowing a suitable care plan to be put into place. The use of a HNA and care plan is essential for a good patient experience. It ensures that patients are supported in all aspects of their treatment and care, and is exceptionally important for brain tumour patients, due to their varied and complex needs. The Brain Tumour Charity's improving brain tumour care survey shows that only 30 per cent of respondents said they were offered a holistic needs assessment, and just 11 per cent of the respondents felt that the resulting care plan from their HNA was working well. With this is mind, Minister, what steps are being taken to ensure that all brain tumour patients in Wales are provided with a HNA and resulting care plan? And will this Government commit to ensuring that all brain tumour patients are offered this crucial form of support as part of their care? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Joel. I think, whenever we're dealing with physical issues where people are really confronting very, very difficult situations, then we do have to consider in particular, perhaps, the mental health impact on people trying to deal with those situations, and so, obviously, where possible, a holistic needs assessment should be made. But I am pleased that we do have some real experts in Wales in brain tumours. Cardiff Neuro-oncology Centre was awarded centre of excellence status by the Tessa Jowell Brain Cancer Mission, and I'm really pleased also that £9.4 million has been invested in Cardiff University's brain research imaging centre, CUBRIC.

Mike Hedges AC: My mother had a brain tumour, which she sadly died from. The GP was treating her for a long period of time, in its early stages, for thyroid problems—having tests done on the thyroid. By the time she went into hospital, it was stage 4. It was only when it spread to other parts of the body that she was referred for a CT scan. I request that GPs are trained to identify the symptoms and then test for brain tumours, and not try and find something simpler.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Mike, and I'm sorry to hear about your mother. I think what's clear is we've got to be very careful, because, obviously, GPs see countless numbers of people with headaches or issues with balance or vague symptoms, such as fatigue, so it's very difficult, I think, for them to be absolutely clear. And there is already very well recognised professional guidance in place for GPs from NICE to refer adults with progressive loss of central neurological function for urgent investigation. I'm sure you will be aware that the NHS in Wales is now rolling out rapid diagnostic centres to the whole population, and I'm pleased to say that, actually, that is being used and many, many people are now being referred.

The 2022 FIFA World Cup

Heledd Fychan AS: 5. How is the Minister working with the Minister for Economy to ensure the Welsh Government capitalises on the Cymru men's football team's qualification for the 2022 world cup to improve public health through grass-roots sports participation? OQ58346

Lynne Neagle AC: Officials are in early discussions with the Football Association of Wales to consider how we can take forward a range of programmes through 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' and our proposed social prescribing framework. These programmes will include a focus on physical and mental health.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you, Deputy Minister. That's a very encouraging response, because the Football Association of Wales recently shared with the Culture, Welsh Language, Communications, Sport and International Relations Committee—there's no way of saying that quickly, sorry—their submission to the Welsh Government regarding how we can grow football in Wales to improve the health of the nation. Their request was a £10 million investment per annum for a decade. And we know that, in Wales, despite our love for rugby, football is emerging as the No. 1 team sport in terms of public interest and participation, with powerchair and walking football becoming increasingly popular too. There is an opportunity, through the world cup, to inspire people of all ages and backgrounds to become more active and improve public health. You've outlined some of the things, but is there also going to be an active campaign to make sure that we capitalise on this? Thank you.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Heledd, and I entirely agree that the world cup gives us a really good opportunity to capture the power and enthusiasm of football to tackle some of the public health issues that we face. I haven't seen the paper that you refer to, but I will certainly ask to receive a copy of it.
Just to expand a little bit further on the work that's been going on, as I said, senior officials have met with the Football Association of Wales and are developing a set of ideas and proposals to consider further action, and that includes population-wide messages. We're also working closely with Sport Wales, including through investment in our Healthy and Active Fund, and with other national governing bodies, to consider how we can increase physical activity levels across Wales. Officials are also in early discussions with the FAW regarding a programme called Football Fans in Training—FFIT—which is a weight-loss intervention supported through football clubs, which has an evidence base in Scotland and England, and we're looking at whether we can roll out some pilots of that in Wales, harnessing the enthusiasm for football. As Members are aware, we've also got some children and families pilots operating across Wales, and our discussions with the FAW are also considering the potential of scaling up something called Footie Families, which supports children in learning a range of skills, providing opportunities for high-quality movement while inspiring parents. We've also, as part of these discussions, talked to the FAW about our social prescribing framework, which we're going to shortly consult on, as that also provides an opportunity for us to harness some of these issues.

James Evans MS: Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me that sport is extremely important for our young people right across Wales not just in terms of their physical health, but also their mental health. It's great for people to get out there in the fresh air and experience that. It really opens people up as well—the talking about their problems. You're talking about social prescribing, and actually getting GPs to more socially prescribe to make sure that our young people are accessing that to make sure it does help their mental health. But also, that needs to go into schools as well, to make sure that our schools are educating young people about healthy lifestyles to help their mental health. So, can you tell me what work you've done across Government to understand the impacts of mental health and sport on our young people?

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much for that question, James. This is absolutely a cross-Government issue. As you're aware, our 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' plan is a cross-Government plan, with all Ministers making a contribution to what we're trying to do. Clearly, there's a really important role for education, and we are uniquely well placed in Wales with our new curriculum, with our area of learning focused on health and well-being, to really embed that understanding of health in schools so that our young people get the best possible start in life. Also, young people will be a feature of what we're doing through our social prescribing programme. I'm really concerned that that doesn't appear to be just something that is for older people, because we know that it can often be young people who experience the most loneliness.

Children's Opportunities for Play

Peter Fox AS: 6. What action is the Welsh Government taking to ensure that opportunities for play are available and accessible to all children? OQ58356

Julie Morgan AC: Access to high-quality play opportunities is critical for the social, emotional and physical development of all children. I am proud that Wales was the first country to legislate, guaranteeing children's right to play by ensuring local authorities secure sufficient opportunities, via the play sufficiency duty.

Peter Fox AS: Thank you, Minister, for that response. I absolutely recognise what you said about play being absolutely important for physical and mental health. I welcome initiatives such as the Summer of Fun scheme to extend play. However, I've had recent discussions with Scope, and they suggest that equipment is often inaccessible to disabled children and many playgrounds are not designed with full accessibility in mind. In fact, half of the parents with disabled children say there is some accessibility problem with their local playground. Obviously, that means that many young people can't feel included in their play. Wales has a clear commitment to be a play-friendly country, and so dedicated investment is needed to support this ambition. Deputy Minister, I wonder what conversations you've had with your Cabinet colleagues about the steps that can be taken to improve accessibility to playgrounds. And will you consider calls to create an inclusive playground fund to co-produce new and improve existing playgrounds with disabled children and their families? Thank you.

Julie Morgan AC: I thank Peter Fox very much for that question. I am aware of Scope, and I've had a letter from Scope as well. Welsh Government officials have met with Scope officials already twice this year. I can absolutely assure you of our continuing commitment to provide opportunities for all children and young people to play in safety and to support improved access to play for disabled children. Both the Welsh Government and the play sector in Wales favour inclusive play where able-bodied and disabled children are able to play together, and this is supported by the Children's Play Policy Forum and UK Play Safety Forum, who released a joint position statement this year supporting inclusive play, which, of course, goes beyond accessible playgrounds. Local authorities, as I'm sure the Member will know, are required to ensure that there are sufficient play opportunities for all children in line with the provisions under section 11 of the Children and Families (Wales) Measure 2010, and this includes specific provision for the consideration of the needs of disabled children. So, local authorities should be looking at this already.
Just to give an indication about how much support is being put in by the Welsh Government, since the play sufficiency duty was introduced in November 2012, we've made £33.330 million revenue funding available to local authorities to enable them to meet the requirements—that's since 2012—but, for the financial years 2020-21 and 2021-22, we awarded local authorities a total of £8 million COVID recovery capital funding, which gave authorities the flexibility to purchase large items and refurbish playgrounds and access to playgrounds.

Vikki Howells AC: Deputy Minister, when you and I have discussed inclusive play previously, we've agreed that key to improving access to these opportunities is making sure that information is easily available so that parents, guardians, children, young people and families know what inclusive play is available and where it's located. How will Welsh Government work with partners to ensure this sort of information is shared—something that's important all through the year, but especially as we look to the summer holidays?

Julie Morgan AC: Thank you very much, Vikki Howells, for that question. I know how diligently you've pursued this issue. A local authority family information service can inform parents and carers about the availability and location of play opportunities, and they'll be also able to signpost parents and carers to the play team, who are best placed to assess their needs. Many local councils in Wales have information about accessibility on the play sections of their websites, and we encourage local authorities to do this as part of their play sufficiency actions. Local authorities should be working collaboratively across a range of key policy areas, and this will enable local authorities to collaborate to support the needs of local people. So, local authorities have a duty to do this, and they have a duty to inform the public. I'm aware that the Member would like there to be something much more specific, so I'll tell her that we will discuss with local authorities about any more that can be done so that people know where the facilities are available, particularly with the Summer of Fun coming up now.

Nutritional Value of Hospital Food

Altaf Hussain AS: 7. What action is the Minister taking to improve the nutritional value of meals served in Welsh hospitals? OQ58333

Eluned Morgan AC: The all-Wales nutrition and catering standards were published in 2011 to ensure hospital food meets the diverse needs of the hospital population. Work is currently under way to review those standards to ensure they continue to meet the nutritional and dietary requirements of hospital patients in Wales.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you, Minister. On two recent stays in hospital, one at the Princess of Wales and the other at the University Hospital of Wales, I was shocked at the lack of dietary choice available. As a Muslim, I was not offered halal food. I have been informed since then that vegetarians are often not offered food meeting their dietary needs either. The result: in-patients having to rely on family or friends to bring in food during visiting time, which has not been possible in these pandemic years. Minister, I'm sure you'll agree with me that this is unacceptable and will lead to instances where patients are not getting the right balance of nutrition to aid their recovery. Minister, will you ensure that all hospitals in Wales serve meals that fulfil the dietary requirements of patients as well as being nutritionally balanced? Thank you.

Eluned Morgan AC: Thanks very much, Altaf, and I'm pleased to say that officials are already working with their NHS counterparts to begin that process of reviewing the standards that include hospital food. However, it is a very significant piece of work and something where, obviously, we're very keen, if we can, to make sure that we include local food in that. Now, what I don't have yet is a set timetable for the publication of the refreshed standards, but what I do accept is that it has been a long time since the last standards were issued, and that's why we will take account of the review and, of course, some of the issues that you pointed out will be considered in that review.
The more pressing issue for me this weekend, to be honest, is the incredible heat that's heading our way and is already hitting us. I'm very concerned about the impact on older people. I hope that people who are suffering with cardiovascular issues and with respiratory diseases will be extremely careful. We are looking at a high-impact weather event. We are particularly concerned about what will be happening on Sunday and on Monday. I'd encourage people to drink lots of water, don't be a mad dog or an Englishman and go out in the midday sun, and be aware of the pressure on the NHS. It is already intense: our beds are full; we have 1,000 COVID patients; accident and emergency departments are under strain; ambulances are extremely stretched. We really want to try and avoid any more pressure on the NHS at this time, so please be careful this coming weekend.

Mental Health Services in North Wales

Llyr Gruffydd AC: 8. Will the Deputy Minister provide an update on the provision of mental health services in north Wales? OQ58362

Lynne Neagle AC: We continue to provide significant and sustained funding to support the provision of mental health services. In addition to its mental health ring-fenced allocation, Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board will receive an additional £4.9 millionof recurrent mental health funding this year to continue to improve mental health support.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: On 15 June, in response to a question about the abrupt closure of Denbigh Men's Shed, you said, and I quote,
'I've been in touch with the health board and have been advised that, following a health and safety walk around, risks were noted and felt to be of such a nature that a temporary suspension of this service was required.'
Now, serious questions have been raised about the validity of that decision. Staff involved, apparently, had failed to follow procedure, and I'm told that the suspension actually had no basis and, ultimately, was shown to be invalid. Now, I'm sure you'll join with me, of course, in celebrating the subsequent reopening of Denbigh Men's Shed, despite the harmful upheaval that caused to some of our most fragile and at-risk people, but can I ask: what process does the Government have in place to check whether information provided to you by other bodies, as you prepare to answer these questions, is actually correct and is actually reflective of the reality of the situation on the ground?

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you, Llyr, and, yes, I was really pleased that the men's shed is open again, and I saw on Twitter that you had been able to visit them to celebrate that opening. Officials checked with the health board what the position was in relation to the abrupt closure of the men's shed. I had in fact received an e-mail to my MS inbox about it so was able to alert officials, and we were given the assurances that I then gave in the Chamber that there had been health and safety issues highlighted, but that these were being resolved following some urgent action being taken. Obviously, you hope that when you're provided with that information that is correct. If you're saying that's not the case, then I'd advise maybe that you write to me about that.

The Preventative Healthcare Agenda

John Griffiths AC: 9. What progress is the Welsh Government making with its preventative healthcare agenda? OQ58347

Lynne Neagle AC: As part of our 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' and tobacco control strategies, we are co-investing, with local health boards, into a number of programmes and interventions that support population health outcomes.

John Griffiths AC: Thank you for that, Minister. I recently ran the Llanishen parkrun, which was celebrating links between parkrun organisers and GP practices to encourage more integrated and supportive local communities, centring on wellness. I note that parkrun organisers, Minister, would very much like to see a consistent approach right across Wales, making these links between those working in the health sector and the parkrun organisers, facilitating communication and joint working. I'd just like to ask what Welsh Government will be doing to strengthen that agenda and take it forward in Wales.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, John, and I know that you are an enthusiastic supporter of parkruns, and I think that they play an enormous role in making sure that we can get people more active and I'm very keen to support them.
Pre pandemic, my officials were in discussion with the UK Government, the Royal College of General Practitioners and parkrun UK around a programme to promote social prescribing of parkrun, and there are already practices in Wales that have been supporting this programme. I've asked my officials to re-establish these links and consider further work on that that could be taken forward across Wales.

Finally, question 10, Mike Hedges.

Preventing Heart Disease

Mike Hedges AC: 10. What steps is the Welsh Government taking to prevent heart disease? OQ58332

Lynne Neagle AC: Individuals can take a range of steps to reduce their chances of developing heart disease, by not smoking, maintaining a healthy weight and exercising regularly, for example. Our 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' and tobacco control strategies are developing a range of measures to support people to make those healthier choices.

Mike Hedges AC: Can I thank you for that answer? We know that smoking has reduced, and is continuing to reduce, and many of us are waiting for it to reach zero. Unfortunately, obesity is moving in the opposite direction, and that is causing a large number of people to suffer from things that can cause heart disease. Hardening of the arteries happens 10 times more often in people who are obese than in people who are not obese. So, will the Welsh Government develop an obesity strategy in order to try and get people to their correct weight? That's going to have to involve a lot of social action; rather than giving people a tablet for everything, try and get people exercising, try and get people dieting, and try and get people taking some responsibility for their own health, rather than hoping a doctor will solve everything.

Lynne Neagle AC: Thank you very much, Mike. You'll be pleased to know that we have a really comprehensive anti-obesity strategy in Wales called 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales'. It's a 10-year strategy that we are breaking up into two-year delivery plans so that we can really focus on making sure that we are delivering in what is a really complex area. It is a hugely challenging area, because we all know when habits are unhealthy, but getting people to change those habits is really complex. So, we have a multifaceted approach in our strategy that involves behaviour change, it involves funding things like the pilots for children and young people; we're investing very significantly in the all-Wales weight management programme to make sure that there are pathways in all parts of Wales, and we're investing in community sports, in the healthy and active fund, and also, vitally, our plan includes, as I said in response to James Evans earlier on, a strong focus on the role of education and making sure that young people learn from an early age how to become more healthy. It is a really challenging agenda, but we are very committed to doing it. We have a new implementation board, which I chair, we've got very senior leaders from across Wales on that board, and we are absolutely determined to drive forward this agenda.

Thank you, Minister and Deputy Ministers.

3. Topical Questions

The next item is the topical questions, and I call on Luke Fletcher to ask his question.

Child Poverty

Luke Fletcher AS: 1. Will the Minister make a statement on reports that child poverty rose in Wales during the pandemic despite falling across the rest of the UK nations? TQ657

Jane Hutt AC: I thank Luke Fletcher for that question. The key levers for tackling child poverty—powers over the tax and welfare system—sit with the UK Government, but we will continue to do all we can with the powers we have to tackle inequalities and improve outcomes for all children in Wales so that they can fulfil their potential.

Luke Fletcher AS: Thank you for that response, Minister.

Luke Fletcher AS: The reality is that child poverty has remained alarmingly high over the past decade. Whilst my colleague Liz Saville Roberts raised with the Prime Minister in Prime Minister's questions today that he should scrap the two-child limit and reinstate the £20 uplift for all families entitled to welfare—by the way, I have to say, it was another poor response from him on this issue—I am keen to learn what Welsh Government can do.
Now, we'll be having a debate later on today on the Welsh Government's spending priorities. I'll be making the case again for expanding the education maintenance allowance. I do accept that there will be conflicting priorities in the Welsh Government's budget, but surely tackling child poverty should be one of the main priorities within the Welsh Government's budget. I would hope that the Welsh Government would reflect this, not just by introducing further support but also agreeing to set child poverty targets so that we can better measure Welsh Government's successes or failures within this field. And on this point as well, the Bevan Foundation is right to say that the fact that poverty targets have not worked in the past is not a reason to dismiss the potential benefits of setting new ones.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, thank you very much for those important supplementary questions. I did see that the End Child Poverty alliance made some very clear calls on the UK Government that benefit payments should permanently keep pace with inflation—3.1 per cent, the uplift in April—and also that the two-child limit on child benefit, and, indeed, the benefit cap, should be abolished. And I've called for that. In fact, when I first met with the children's commissoner—the previous children's commissioner—those were the calls, and, indeed, from the Bevan Foundation. But I will say that we're continuing to target support at families with children. Our programme for government commits us to continuing support for our flagship Flying Start programme of early intervention; extending the pupil development grant access, a scheme worth up to £200 per child to support more families with the school uniforms, school kit; and we're so pleased that, as part of the co-operation agreement we've given that commitment to roll out free school meals to all primary school children. I could go on, but I will say that what's important is that we've given a commitment to publish a refreshed child poverty strategy, and committed to working with stakeholders over the summer so that we can publish it this year.

Laura Anne Jones AC: Minister, I'm not interested in a blame game today. What I want to hear today and what my struggling constituents want to hear today is what this Labour Government are going to do about the fact that 36.3 per cent of children in the city of Newport in my region are living in poverty, according to the recent data just released from child poverty charity End Child Poverty. This makes Newport the most impoverished local authority in Wales. Sadly, the picture isn't too much better across Wales, with 34 per cent of children in Wales living in poverty, as was outlined by Luke Fletcher, which makes Wales the worst in the UK—up from 31 per cent before the COVID-19 pandemic. Everyone has a role to play to get these children out of poverty—this Government, the UK Government and the Labour-run Newport City Council. We all have a responsibility to ensure these children do not get left behind and suffer unnecessarily. I don't want to to and fro today about whose fault is what, and I appreciate your commitment, Minister, but more urgent action needs to be taken, and I want to hear from you today what exactly you are going to do, more than you're already doing, to ensure that we reverse this worrying trend that we're seeing in Newport. Thank you.

Jane Hutt AC: Well, I do have to ask Laura Anne Jones: are you going to join us, are you going to join me, are you going to join those opposition MPs in Westminster today, raising the issues that were raised by the End Child Poverty alliance, and raised, actually, with us on Monday at the cost-of-living summit, which was joined by—[Interruption.] Can I please answer the question, Deputy Presiding Officer?

It is important that Members on all benches allow people to either ask the question or answer the question.

Jane Hutt AC: So, can I just say again: will you call on the UK Conservative Government to make sure that benefit payments—which has been called for—permanently keep pace with inflation and also that the two-child limit on child benefit and the benefit cap is abolished? And of course we will play our part. I've already outlined ways in which we are playing our part in terms of our responsibilities, and I'm going to add to that. To respond to your question, Laura Anne Jones, we're also going to extend the childcare offer to parents of two-year-olds and those in training or education, and since November we've provided more than £380 million in additional funding to support households affected by the cost-of-living crisis. It's good to give the figures again today: 166,000 households benefited from that £200 payment under our first winter fuel support scheme; 83 per cent of eligible households in Wales have already received their cost-of-living payment of £150; and in January this year, claims to the discretionary assistance fund reached £3 million for the first time. We continue with those payments and the flexibilities in the discretionary assistance payment.
But I'm also pleased—and it will help your constituents—that we have now funded the Fuel Bank Foundation to distribute approximately 49,000 vouchers—in the summer months needed for cooking, in the winter for heating and cooking—to pre-payment households, the poorest households across Wales at risk of disconnection. So, we play our part, but you might join us in calling for that action from the UK Government.

Mike Hedges AC: In one of the richest countries in the world, no child should go hungry. No child should live in a house that is in poverty. Unfortunately, very many do. The expansion of free school meals—which I've asked for over several years, and was then taken up by Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government—is a very positive step, but I have mothers in my constituency who dread the school summer holidays because they have to provide 10 extra meals a week per child. Will the Welsh Government continue its free lunch initiative over all of the school holidays, including this year's summer holidays? And will free breakfasts be available to all schoolchildren during the summer holidays and other holidays? This would make a huge difference to dealing with poverty in my constituency.

Jane Hutt AC: Thank you very much, Mike Hedges, and I do remember coming to visit your Faith in Families project, an important project, in Swansea East and seeing what they were doing as a charity supporting the local community, very much engaged in tackling food poverty during the school holidays, as well as during the term. And I was pleased on Monday at the cost-of-living crisis summit, which I chaired with the Minister for Finance and Local Government and the Minister for Climate Change, to announce an extra £3 million of Welsh Government funding to support the development of cross-sector food partnerships, and strengthen existing food partnerships. That is actually for local food networks' co-ordination on the ground, building resilience, working with Public Health Wales, local authorities, Welsh housing associations and advice services to understand and address local needs. I'm sure that this will also include looking at those issues you've raised this afternoon.

Thank you, Minister.

4. 90-second Statements

The next item is the 90-second statements, and the first is from Heledd Fychan.

Heledd Fychan AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. On 11 July each year, we remember Srebrenica and the genocide of 8,372 Bosnian Muslim men and boys. The efforts of remembering here in Wales are driven by Abi Carter and the board of Remembering Srebrenica Wales, who work hard to ensure we do not forget the stories of Srebrenica and that we learn the lessons of this brutal genocide. This year's theme for the commemoration is combating denial and challenging hatred. By understanding and confronting this dark side of our collective history, we can ensure that we illuminate darkness with hope.
The children of this war grew up without a childhood, without peace and without family members. As one survivor said,
'I was 10 years old when the war ended, but it was four years earlier that I stopped being a child.'
The efforts of remembering Srebrenica through educational visits, among other things, ensure the memory of this atrocity lives on, teaching a valuable lesson about where hatred can lead. This work continues through the pupils of Treorchy Comprehensive School, who were worthy winners of the Youth Ambassadors award at the commemoration event last week. One survivor poignantly said,
'Despite everything, I hope that I can teach my daughters to grow up without hatred. This will be my success.'
We must never forget this brutal genocide, and we must continue to challenge hate and extremism in all forms.

Heledd Fychan AS: Wales remembers Srebrenica.

Jayne Bryant AC: Eighty-five years ago, following the bombing of Guernica during the Spanish civil war, 4,000 Basque children and accompanying adult staff were evacuated to Britain. It was a remarkable display of community grass-roots organisation. Over 200 children came to Wales, where homes known as 'colonies' were set up for refugees, one of which was in Cambria House in Caerleon, where 56 children arrived on 10 July 1937. It turned out to be one of the most successful in the UK. It was a time of high unemployment and poverty, but the people of Caerleon and Newport welcomed the children with open arms. Everyone was involved in fundraising, from the South Wales Miner's Federation and local volunteers, to the children themselves. They formed a formidable Basque football team, produced their own bilingual newspaper, and helped to raise money through traditional Basque dances and songs.
On this notable anniversary, I'm delighted that a delegation of the Basque Government will be at a series of events being held in Caerleon. The weekend of festivities includes football matches, dancers, singers and poets from both Wales and the Basque Country, seminars and talks, and also tours of Caerleon's Roman heritage. It promises to be a wonderful occasion. With war once again clouding over Europe, the parallels with refugees and the hospitality of the Welsh people are sadly very easy to see. The generosity and kindness of the people of Caerleon should be something our country is proud of. I'm so pleased it's being commemorated, and long may that relationship between our people continue to thrive.

Altaf Hussain AS: 'One child, one teacher, one book and one pen can change the world.'
These are the words of Malala Yousafzai, a truly inspirational young woman, born on 12 July 1997 in the Swat valley in Pakistan. When she was just 11 years old the Taleban took over her village and closed her school. She decided, even at that young age, that she would not give up her education without a fight. She spoke out publicly on behalf of girls and their right to learn. And she was shot in the head for her efforts. But thanks to the UK Government and a team of medics in Birmingham, Malala survived and continued to speak up for gender equality from her new home here in Britain.
Our daughters and granddaughters thankfully do not face the same challenges that confronted Malala, or confront 130 million girls around the world today, but thanks to inspirational young women like Malala, they can look forward to a brighter, more equal future. So, a happy—if slightly belated—birthday, Malala, and thank you for all you continue to do to make our world a better place. Thank you.

Delyth Jewell AC: I would like to congratulate Côr CF1 on winning the Choir of the World competition at the Llangollen Eisteddfod last week. In order to win the title, the choir sang songs including an arrangement of 'Dros Gymru'n Gwlad', 'Gwinllan a Roddwyd i'n Gofal', and also a French folk song and a prayer in Russian—an appropriately international repertoire for a festival like this.
CF1 was established in 2002 under the leadership of Eilir Owen Griffiths, and since then, it has gone from strength to strength. Certainly, Dirprwy Lywydd, it is encouraging to see the Pavarotti trophy being kept in Wales for another year. And what a wonderful way for the choir to be able to celebrate its 20-year anniversary.
The Llangollen Eisteddfod remains one of the world's most famous singing competitions, and it is also a platform for Welsh talent on the international stage. So, congratulations to CF1 and to all the choirs who were victorious in their competitions, and it's good to see such a precious trophy being kept again in the land of song.

Thank you. Moving on, in accordance with Standing Order 12.24, unless a Member objects the two motions under items 5 and 6, motions to amend Standing Orders, will be grouped for debate, but with votes taken separately. I see that there are no objections.

5. & 6. Motion to amend Standing Orders—Standing Order 34 and remote participation in Senedd proceedings, and Motion to amend Standing Orders—Proxy Voting

I call on a member of the Business Committee to formally move the motion. Siân Gwenllian.

Motion NDM8063 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 33.2:
1. Considers the report of the Business Committee, ‘Amending Standing Orders: Standing Order 34 and remote participation in Senedd proceedings’, laid in the Table Office on 6 July 2022.
2. Approves the proposals to amend Standing Orders 6, 12 and 17, as set out in Annex A of the Business Committee’s report.
3. Notes the Business Committee’s recommendation that Standing Order 34 should cease to have effect, as scheduled, on 1 August 2022.

Motion NDM8062 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 33.2:
1. Considers the report of the Business Committee, ‘Amending Standing Orders: Temporary Standing Orders 12.41A-H on Proxy Voting’, laid in the Table Office on 6 July 2022.
2. Approves the proposal to amend Standing Order 12, as set out in Annex A of the Business Committee’s report.

Motions moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Formally move.

Heledd Fychan AS: May I say how much I welcome this motion today, not for my sake or that of any of us here as Senedd Members now, but for those who would never consider that it was a possibility for them to become a Member of the Senedd—people with caring responsibilities, for example, not only with children, but perhaps with an elderly parent or a partner who needs their support; disabled people who think that they could never be here regularly because of their conditions, and the fact that the need to be in Cardiff is a barrier to them thinking that they could be a representative of their region or constituency; and those who live far away too?
I'm lucky; I represent South Wales Central. It's not far for me to travel here to the Senedd; it is, in fact, within my region. But, for those who have to travel perhaps 20 hours a week just to be here, that is a barrier for many in considering becoming a Member of the Senedd. So, I welcome this. If we are to have a Senedd that is democratic and representative, and has 96 Members, if that comes to pass, then I want it to be a Senedd that represents the whole of Wales, and I welcome this.
Of course, there will be times when there are benefits to being here in Cardiff. Most of us try to be here, and there are so many benefits when we can come together, in terms of sharing ideas, getting to know each other in committees and so on. But, being here all of the time isn't necessary, and we have shown that it can work through the COVID period. 
I am very disappointed to hear some comments from the Tories in the press today, talking about 'representation from the Senedd, not the sofa'. Well, we all have offices within our constituencies and regions; we can represent our constituents there. I also think that we need to bear in mind that the vast majority of us have taken advantage of this at times. Certainly, when one gets a phone call from their child's school to say that they're unwell, for example, the fact that you can be there to collect them and can continue to contribute to the Senedd is extremely important, and it means that you aren't penalised for being a parent, because it is possible for you to participate.
There were so many times when I was a county councillor when I was criticised if I missed one meeting because it wasn't possible to participate in a hybrid manner, as compared to a man who was perhaps retired who could attend all meetings. Did that mean that I was a lesser representative of my community because I missed that one meeting? The fact that I was then able to be there, with my child at home, whilst also representing my community, that made a very real difference, because people do use that against you, if you look at just the record of attendance. That doesn't mean that you are not an effective representative.
Having spoken to people with disabilities too who welcome this change, they've said that this would mean that they could stand, because the greatest barrier is having to be here for every session and having to be here to vote. So, I warmly welcome this. I very much hope that the Conservatives will rethink some of their derogatory comments, in my view, because our democracy isn't open to everyone as things stand. This is an important step forward; it won't remove all barriers, but it is an important step forward and I welcome it.

The proposal is to amend Standing Orders in relation to Standing Order 34 and remote participation in Senedd proceedings. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

The proposal is to amend Standing Orders in relation to proxy voting. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes. I will defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

Motion to elect a Member to a committee

Next we have the motion to elect a Member to a committee, and I call on a member of the Business Committee to move the motion formally. Siân Gwenllian.

Motion NNDM8068 Elin Jones
To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Sarah Murphy (Welsh Labour) as a member of the Health and Social Care Committee in place of Mike Hedges (Welsh Labour).

Motion moved.

Siân Gwenllian AC: Formally moved.

Thank you. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

7. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv): Basic Income and the transition to a zero-carbon economy

Item 7 today is a Member debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) on basic income and the transition to a zero-carbon economy, and I call on Jane Dodds to move the motion.

Motion NDM8028 Jane Dodds, Jack Sargeant, Luke Fletcher, Carolyn Thomas
Supported by Delyth Jewell
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Notes:
a) that a significant number of Welsh workers are employed in industries that will undergo significant change as part of Wales's transition to a zero carbon economy;
b) the importance of ensuring a just transition to a zero carbon economy;
c) the Welsh Government’s ongoing basic income (BI) pilot for care leavers.
2. Calls on the Welsh Government to consider how the BI pilot could be extended to workers in these industries to inform Wales’s transition to a zero carbon economy.

Motion moved.

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. Thank you so much to the Business Committee for choosing this motion.
In the last three months, monsoon rains unleashed disastrous flooding in Bangladesh; brutal heat waves seared parts of south Asia and Europe; prolonged drought has left millions on the brink of famine in east Africa; and, close to home, look at what's happening here: we're experiencing extremely high temperatures. This Senedd and the Government have recognised the climate and ecological crisis that we face. So, the case for transitioning our economy and our society to ones that live within the means of our planet's limited resources is, right now, irrefutable.
But the question is how we support the nearly 220,000 jobs across Wales in industries that will, as a consequence of our transition to net zero, inevitably cease to exist in the future. We cannot be bystanders while workers and communities undergo the most rapid and significant change in decades. The International Institute for Labour Studies has said that we live in times of chronic high unemployment, when new jobs are mostly created on low pay scales, with a distinct lack of benefits and security, stagnating or declining real incomes, and social security systems that are either completely absent or tightly rationed.
Our ambition for workers and our communities must be far-reaching and all-embracing as part of our transition to net zero. It will not be a fair or just transition if workers lose their jobs or go into vulnerable employment. We are being warned that countries that fail to prepare for this economic shift towards more vulnerable work will be increasingly hard hit by the instabilities associated with climate breakdown. We have to deliberately and proactively disrupt that dangerous trend towards precarious work. And a significant change, we are being warned, will come.
We have to ensure that our transition is not just well planned, but is socially just. For this reason, I'm proposing that Welsh Government extend the ongoing basic income pilot to include those employed in high-carbon intensive industries. Many of you will be aware of my support for a universal basic income, unlocking the potential and freedom of people from all walks of life who are held back and prevented from shaping their own futures. A basic income targeted at workers directly impacted by our transition to net zero would ensure that they are protected and empowered to determine their futures. It would serve as a safety net whilst our economy shifts and industries adapt.
I welcome the ongoing work from Welsh Government in their plan for green employment, but this does not address how Wales ensures it is a just transition. The plan lacks clarity on which industries will be supported and what support will be available. Only £1 million has been allocated for this financial year to a Net Zero Wales skills action plan, which does not reflect the urgency nor the scale, when it has been identified that there are around 15 industries across Europe that are likely to undergo significant change.
To finish, a basic income pilot, I believe, will shine a light on the potential of a basic income to support workers not only to transition to a zero-carbon economy, but to help Wales become a fairer, greener, more just society. I hope the Senedd can support those workers and this proposal today. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhun ap Iorwerth took the Chair.

Jack Sargeant AC: I'd like to take the opportunity to thank Jane Dodds for giving us the opportunity once again to debate a basic income in this Senedd, and I'm pleased to be able to co-submit today's motion. As some of the Members will recall from the debate I led calling for Wales to lead the way and announce a trial for universal basic income here in Wales, one of the key attractions to a basic income for me is that ability to help residents manage—that safety net Jane Dodds alluded to. But it's not just a safety net there; it's the ability to allow residents to thrive, to be that springboard in a period of almost unprecedented change.
Colleagues, globally, we do face challenges that cannot be ignored—huge shifts in the way our economies and our societies will work. One of these in particular is the subject of today's debate. And that's the need to restructure our economies to meet the challenge of the climate crisis. Accept it or not, Members—and I hope Members in this Chamber, every single one of us, do accept it—the future of humanity is at risk. If we are to turn our societies carbon neutral, this will not be easy, but I am sure that it does bring great opportunity as well as challenges. Communities like mine, back in Alyn and Deeside, are built around manufacturing, and they should be at the absolute forefront of building the next generation of carbon-neutral products, the pillars of these on energy generation, sustainable transport and the retrofitting of businesses and homes.
I was proud to lead a debate calling for Wales to become the first nation in the world to disinvest in pension funds from fossil fuels, and I spoke then about the way these funds could drive investment in the types of new technologies that we need. Today's motion from Jane Dodds is about how we manage that transition. As a trained research and development engineer, which is something quite unusual for elected politics, far from a political adviser, I have the ability to recognise this huge change in our society, and the changes that we face, and the challenges that we face because of automation, digitalisation and artificial intelligence. Those jobs that we consider high skilled will be done by robots, will be done by machines. But this change is happening whether we like it or not, and whether we resist it or not. And we have to manage that transition.
One of my roles as an engineer was to manage change, and we must learn from examples where Governments have managed change catastrophically badly. And in my community of Alyn and Deeside, we've seen that first-hand. We still feel the pain of that first-hand. We were thrown to the wolves when deindustrialisation happened in the 1980s. It was an unmanaged set of changes by a Thatcherite ideology. It damaged lives and it damaged life chances. As I say, we still feel the pain in Alyn and Deeside. At the last election, the UK Tories claimed that they recognised this, and they claimed and talked about levelling up. But that just simply hasn't happened. And now—we see it, don't we—they are fast abandoning that ship and these promises, and they're even talking about a return to the Thatcherite nightmare that is associated with Alyn and Deeside—the single biggest mass redundancy in Europe.
Acting Presiding Officer, it will fall to more bold forces to manage this change properly, to manage and explore the bold policy solutions like a universal basic income. Our Conservative Members shout, and they have shouted it before, that it can't be done. But didn't they claim that when our beloved NHS was first mooted and then delivered by Welsh Labour? So, colleagues, I do commend this motion to the Senedd today. I do hope colleagues—

Joel James MS: Will you give way?

Jack Sargeant AC: Yes, of course.

Joel James MS: You mentioned the NHS there, but as you know, and I want you to confirm this, it was a Conservative health Minister that first proposed the creation of a national health service—Henry Willinkin 1941. So, to say that we've always been opposed to the national health service is factually wrong, isn't it?

Jack Sargeant AC: Well, it's not factually wrong at all, because the person who delivered the health service was NyeBevan. So, if you look at those facts, Joel James, you will see that. And it's not just the NHS, is it? We've heard these arguments before. It was the same argument when we tried to stop children going down the mines 100 years ago. You didn't accept that then, and you don't accept this now.
Friends, I commend this motion to the Senedd. I do hope our colleagues from across the Chamber support our bold motion put forward, and I hope the bold Welsh Labour Government, under Mark Drakeford, will be supporting this motion today. Diolch yn fawr.

Joel James MS: Thank you, Jane, for proposing this debate. I would like to start by saying that I agree that there are significant numbers of Welsh workers who are employed in industries that will undergo significant change as part of the transition to net zero. However, I am not convinced that the transition to a zero-carbon economy in Wales is going to cause either widespread unemployment or have any negative impact on employment at all. If anything, I would argue that these industries will invest more in their staff in order to train them for their decarbonisation transition, and, as such, I am at a loss as to why people would think that it could be an unjust transition for workers as we move to a zero-carbon economy.
Furthermore, we have strong employment laws across the United Kingdom, so even if workers found themselves in a position where they were made unemployed as a result of decarbonisation, they would be compensated as appropriate. This leads me to question what evidence has been presented to suggest that, in Wales, those employed in industries that are decarbonising will actually be unjustly impacted. I believe that during the transition to zero carbon, workers will more than likely see improvements in their working conditions, and probably find better pay in the long term, as the businesses save money through more efficient technologies.
Members will be well aware that the Climate Change Committee, an independent statutory body established under the Climate Act 2008, whose purpose is to advise the UK and devolved governments on adapting, among other things, to the impacts of climate change, reports that, for Wales, and I quote,
'the Net Zero transition will bring real savings, as people use fewer resources and adopt cleaner, more-efficient technologies,'
And so, I would argue that calling on the Welsh Government to give people money in the form of a basic income to help this transition, on the premise that workers will be unjustly impacted, is an irresponsible use of public funds.
Moreover, the idea that a basic income for those employed in decarbonising industries to help them experience a just transition is flawed, because employers will have no incentive to increase wages and return to employees the financial benefits that come from the decarbonisation of their industries. This is likely to disproportionately affect those in lower paid jobs more than higher paying jobs, thereby stunting the trend towards higher minimum wages that would likely be delivered by businesses moving to zero-carbon outputs. We have to be aware that the basic income trial will also be giving money to many people who are already very well compensated for the work, and this will be done at the expense of helping some of the poorest people in Wales.
We have to question where people believe the Welsh Government is going to find the money for this increased basic income trial. They cannot borrow it, and they should certainly not be able to do so.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Will you take an intervention?

Joel James MS: Oh, sorry. Yes.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you. With regard to the £1 billion less that we've received, or not received, in Wales, is it not up to you to represent the needs of Wales to your Government in the UK, so that we get what we need?

Joel James MS: Sorry, but could you repeat that question again, but into the microphone?

Rhianon Passmore AC: I do apologise, Joel. With regard to the comment that you've just made, that we should have more money in Wales, can you articulate to me why we're not receiving the money that we should have had to Wales, so that we can do more with what we should have?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: We've had £8.4 billion during the pandemic.

Joel James MS: As Janet has already said, I think we're already adequately funded as it is. [Interruption.]

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: If we can listen to the response. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Joel James MS: Thank you, acting Llywydd. As Janet was highlighting, I think we're already adequately funded as it is. The UK Government is not going to increase the Welsh Government budget to support this costly experiment, and so the Welsh Government would have to cut money out of health, education and other budgets in Wales, which, as we have heard repeatedly in this Chamber, are sectors already in dire need.
Last week, I visited a primary school in Cardiff whose building is in such a state of repair they've had scaffolding erected for over three years. Black mould covers classroom walls, windows can barely be opened to ventilate the school, there are significant damp problems with cracking and falling plaster, lunchtimes are staggered over two hours because 40 per cent of the playground has been lost to scaffolding, there's almost no natural light in classrooms, there's water leaking close to electrical points, and buckets have to be used to catch rainwater. I question how expanding this basic income pilot is a good use of public money when this Government will allow our nation's children to be educated in such appalling conditions.
Might I also remind Members that the basic income is not a devolved matter? We should be encouraging the Government to stop wasting money on these pointless pet projects, and use their time and resources to resolve the issues that they are tasked with, such as trying to resolve the continually falling education standards and dealing with the 700,000 people who are on NHS waiting lists. Acting Llywydd, I see no benefit for the people of Wales in this Government extending their basic income trial and wasting public money in this way. I believe that those workers in industries that are transitioning to zero carbon will not be unjustly impacted. Therefore, I would encourage all Members here to vote against this motion. Thank you.

Luke Fletcher AS: To start, when tackling the climate crisis, we can't focus solely on decarbonisation of the economy. It is an important part, yes, but we also need wider change in how our economy works and how we go about our day-to-day lives. We need a substantial transformation and reorganisation of the current economic system to effectively tackle climate change and respond to the consequences of the climate crisis. The poorest and the most marginalised nations and populations are the least responsible for the production of greenhouse gases, but are more likely to be exposed to the negative effects of climate change, and have more limited access to the resources needed to respond, cope and recover from the impact of the climate crisis. Inequalities have to be placed at the heart of an effective strategy for tackling climate change. Tackling the climate emergency must mean tackling poverty and inequality as well.
Now, speaking to the motion, a just transition is going to be vital. A number of Members across the Chamber have made this point in the past. We must bring people along with us on the journey to net zero. One in five Welsh workers are in climate-critical sectors, sectors that will be massively affected by the shift to net zero. These are those high-carbon sectors that so many communities in Wales rely on for employment and economic success. That's one of the reasons why I've advocated for a just transition commission since my election, so that there will be a body that monitors decisions made by Welsh Government relating to net zero and that will assess the impact on our communities and ensure that there is a plan in place for those communities, such as retraining opportunities. The Scottish Government has already established a commission of the sort.
The reality is, we can't afford to leave people behind in the same way that people were left behind when the pits closed during the Thatcher era. Jack Sargeant has already highlighted this. There was no monitoring of its effects on communities, there was no plan to deal with the aftermath, and as a result we are still feeling the effects of that period today. The same mistakes can't be made again.
Now, of course, as the motion sets out, one way we can mitigate some of the potential effects of net zero would be through a basic income. Ensuring a floor for people that would aim to stop them falling into poverty will go a long way. And by the way, alongside the Welsh Government's policy and pilot, we don't need to look far for examples of how this would work. We've had a form of basic income for farmers for a number of years now. It's a proven concept for supporting sectors and the workers within those sectors, and I would encourage Members to vote in favour of this motion today. The shift to net zero will be a massive undertaking. It must happen. There is no credible argument to be had against it happening, but we must ensure that communities are protected and supported whilst it happens.
Finally, Cadeirydd, I'd like to thank Jane Dodds for submitting the motion, and I'm very glad that she asked me to co-submit.

Carolyn Thomas AS: Thank you to Jane for bringing this incredibly important debate, which I'm very pleased to co-submit to the Senedd. The roll-out of the Welsh Government's basic income trial is a most welcome step towards a more progressive welfare system. I look forward to seeing the results and hope that they will lead to a wider expansion of a basic income across Wales.
The path to a zero-carbon economy is not an easy one. It will require tough decisions from politicians, big changes to the way in which our society functions and adaptations to our lifestyles and behaviours. Let me be as clear as the evidence on climate change is: we have no choice but to follow that path. There is no doubt that we face tall and sometimes frightening hurdles. We must be honest about the threats they pose, particularly to carbon-intensive industries. But whilst we still have to overcome challenges along the way, transitioning to a zero-carbon economy will also provide a myriad of opportunities to build a fairer, more equal and greener society.
It is incumbent on us as politicians to make the most of those opportunities, and in that regard I'd like to concentrate on two industries in particular: animal agriculture and care. Animal agriculture, as we know, is particularly carbon intensive, as well as being the biggest cause of river pollution. Reducing or removing our reliance on eating meat and dairy products will be vital in tackling climate change. However, the huge farmers' protests that are currently paralysing the Netherlands show how important it is that our farming transition is just and as progressive as possible. Providing a basic income to the farming industry can provide them with the headroom and opportunity to diversify their business models in preparation for a society that is less reliant on meat and dairy consumption.
In Finland, technological leaps are being harnessed to turn bacteria and hydrogen into proteins, which can then be used to make anything from milk and eggs through to lab-grown meat and fish, all done with no harm to animals.Tweaks to these proteins could produce lauric acid, which could bring an end to the use of highly destructive palm oil. Environmental author George Monbiot predicts that this technology will make the plant versus meat-based diets argument irrelevant, and with all manner of foods created in this cellular manner, these farm-free foods, as Monbiot calls them, could allow us to hand back vast swathes of our land to nature, massively reduce pesticide use and end deforestation. And this is where the Government comes in: if this technology is harnessed by the state and kept out of the hands of the private sector, it could provide affordable and abundant healthy food for humankind. Instead of simply subsidising carbon-intensive farming, we could provide a basic income and state-owned green jobs to today's farmers to help them create the food of the future.
And in the care industry, a basic income for care workers would reshape the industry from being one with a reputation for precarious zero-hours contracts, low pay and high staff turnover to one that could transform care services, both for those who need them and for those who work in them. An extension of the basic income to care workers would not only encourage and generate employment, it would also boost equality because of the high proportion of the workforce that is female or black, Asian, minority ethnic.
In terms of helping the fight against climate change, research shows that jobs in care produce lower emissions than the average job, helping Wales on its path to a zero-carbon economy. Any serious attempt to tackle climate change requires us to reckon with the neoliberal obsession with growth and measuring GDP. Investing appropriately in a care-led recovery would show a commitment to build a society that properly appreciates non-economic measurements, such as happiness and well-being.
The effects of the climate crisis are globally debilitating on so many issues. The wheels of change in politics can be frustrating and slow to react to the demands of society, but when it comes to climate change, we simply do not have time to be slow. Wales has already shown it can lead the way on climate change. We must continue to lead by embracing the radical and ambitious solutions that will pave the way for a just transition to a zero-carbon economy. Thank you.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Despite all the moans and groans here about how short of money you are from the UK Government, costing £20 million last month, it was announced that around 500 care leavers in Wales would now receive a fixed sum of money: £1,600 every month for two years, in what the Welsh Government is referring to as a radical experiment. Not even are we a month in to these demands and they are now suggesting that the UBI be rolled out to workers in industries that will undergo significant change as a part of Wales's transition to a zero-carbon economy. What the Welsh Government fails to see, and indeed anybody who supports these aims, is that what the people of Wales need is an opportunity; they're not looking for free handouts.
In a nanny state of 22 years, Mark Drakeford and his predecessors have failed to build a modern Welsh state fit for the challenges of tomorrow. They have failed to implement core manifesto commitments, and recommendations from the Senedd on issues such as a clean air Act and legislation on marine planning in Wales. They've failed to make the most of devolution, instead maximising it to the extent of record high poverty levels amongst infants and children—

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Will you take an intervention?

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: It's only to make a very simple point in terms of manifestos: manifestos are for the term, the duration of a whole Senedd, not for delivery on day one. Although I have to say, five of the key points that we had in Labour's manifesto have already been delivered, along with other ones that were part of the co-operation agreement. We'll get there on the other things.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thanks for that contribution, but we'll have to beg to differ. As far as I'm concerned, you have failed the people of Wales as regards the clean air Act.
We've got record high poverty levels amongst infants and children and low levels of investment in our towns and cities. A brain-drain era has swept across the nation, leaving our industries, civil service and hospitals short of staff and without any room for growth. The UBI pilot scheme simply epitomises the current state of Welsh Government affairs. Under its very premise, UBI presents the notion that some should be entitled—entitled—to a payout from the state and that we as individuals are owed something from others. But when has this ever been the mindset of the majority of the people of Wales? Let us not forget that Wales was once the great nation of state building here on the British isles. Well before the Magna Carta, we had Hywel's laws, the most progressive and comprehensive set of laws that set in stone a forward-thinking and a progressive Welsh society. From sowing the soil of our green fields, to mining our coal and slate mines, our coastal villages and hillside communities have prevailed over adversity, and have remained driven to improve the lives of those in our communities through their own grit, hard work and determination.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Then why did it all go wrong?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Well, we've had devolution for 24 years, with Labour, and Plaid Cymru propping them up. That's where it went wrong.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Do you not realise you've been talking about an independent Wales for the last five minutes?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: I have not. Never. I won't see an independent—

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Hywel Dda.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Our academics—[Interruption.] Our academics exported the ideas of liberalism and conservative ideology, fighting for land property rights, religious self-determination and cultural and heritage acknowledgment, and the right to speak the nation's mother tongue. We did not achieve this through entitlement, nor through the notion that we are owed something as a people. We have persevered because we have fought to do so. Our people and our nation are proud and have historically been respected for their own ability to get on with the job.
A change in the wind with Welsh Labour has meant that, for the past 22 years, this state has failed the people of Wales. It has failed to provide adequate education, to take forward new thinkers and pioneers. It has failed to mount a healthcare system that looks after people from day one, and it has failed to build the basic foundations of a state that nurtures growth and facilitates a modern era of Welsh statehood. This results today in paying them off and allowing future generations to pick up the pieces later. If the people of Wales are lacking opportunity, or are struggling to make ends meet, or are unable to find jobs, it is because Welsh Labour have simply failed to spend their years in Government working on policy that delivers real results to improve people's lives.
Now, of course, they will sell this UBI idea as compassionate politics. But where were they—? In fact, where are you now, when Wales has some of the highest child poverty rates in Europe? Where were they when they were given mandate after mandate to solve the issues that we so often see—

Rhianon Passmore AC: Will you take an intervention?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Seeing as it's you, yes.

Rhianon Passmore AC: Thank you so much. In regard to the UN poverty rapporteurwho absolutely criticisedthe then dysfunctional welfare system, how do you feel that a lack of a functioning welfare system impacts on poverty in Wales?

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: At the end of the day, we should be looking to give people an equal opportunity, helping them to find work, bringing out the potential of everybody, not actually saying, 'Do you know what, we'll be a nanny state and we'll just hand it out to you anyway.' Where's the incentive for anybody then to think they can be creative? It's gone.
But again, where were they when they were given mandate after mandate to solve the issues we all witness today? A failing health system, an education system with very poor standards, very bad public—[Interruption.] Oh, come on.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: No, I'm afraid there's no time. We've allowed some interventions, but the clock is against us. Janet Finch-Saunders.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Thank you. Wales has shown itself to be a world leader on much in the past. What is needed now is for this Welsh Government to reflect on the merit of its own people in how far they have carried Wales, but also how much further we can go. Today's politics should be about guaranteeing jobs for your children and for your grandchildren. This is about combating the inequalities that exist within the Welsh administrative process, and making the case—

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Could you draw your comments to a close, please? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: —for finance in future generations. Vote against this today, change the Welsh Government tomorrow, and we will all certainly have a much better and brighter future.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I call on the Minister for Social Justice, Jane Hutt.

Jane Hutt AC: Diolch yn fawr, acting Presiding Officer. The topics of this debate today are close to the heart of this Welsh Government's priorities, as well as the priorities of Members who proposed this motion for debate today. Our programme for government sets out our plans for building a stronger, greener economy as we make maximum progress towards decarbonisation. And in our 2021 co-operation agreement with Plaid Cymru, we set out ambitious plans to create a low-carbon Wales and move towards net zero. This is a motion that requires a cross-Government response, clearly. And responsibility for economic policy and interventions to support industry and business lies with my colleague Vaughan Gething, Minister for Economy, but I'll outline briefly our position in relation to transitioning to a zero-carbon economy.

Jane Hutt AC: These are challenging times for businesses and individuals, with costs of energy and raw materials increasing significantly. And it is against this background that we need to develop a more resilient economy in Wales whilst at the same time achieving our carbon reduction goals. Achieving a just transition to net zero is essential and has been at the forefront of the Minister for Climate Change's objectives. We must take every Welsh citizen with us and leave no-one behind as we move to a greener, fairer future. And this is why the first policy in our Net Zero Wales plan is focused on a just transition, as Members have called for today.
We need to ensure that the transition to a cleaner, fairer future in Wales and the world is carefully managed. And thank you, Jane Dodds, for drawing attention to the impact of climate change on Africa. The changes driven by the need to decarbonise our economy here and in the world will, of course, have impacts on industries, sectors of the workforce and socioeconomic groups in different ways, depending on the pathways, policies and actions that we choose. As a Government, we have a strong commitment to fair working conditions for the Welsh workforce, and this is central to our transition to a zero-carbon economy, as we move to a cleaner, stronger, fairer Wales. Employee voice and collective representation is an essential characteristic of fair work, so it's important that workers in the sectors affected have a strong voice and are effectively represented in the transition to net zero. It's vital that we engage with the workforce and businesses to develop a full understanding of the impact of the transition on the workforce in the sectors affected.
We have committed to making the transition to a zero-carbon economy in the social partnership approach led by my Deputy Minister for Social Partnership, Hannah Blythyn, bringing together Government, trade unions and employers, recognising the importance of early engagement. In creating the industries and jobs of the future, we will review the skills required for a transition to net zero and look to provide opportunities to redeploy employees from traditional industrial sectors. We will engage with the workforce and industry as part of these plans. But we've also agreed to work with the Scottish Government, through their just transition policy forum, so that we can collectively share and learn from one another.
As Jack Sargeant rightly says, we have to make the transition from a fossil fuel-based economy to one based on electricity and hydrogen, generated to a large extent from renewables—and thank you, again, Jack, for your leadership and lived work experience and expertise on these issues. Creating new infrastructure based on electricity will create many new opportunities, including in traditional manufacturing areas, and you make excellent points about the impact of the transition on the current workforce. We're committed, as I've said, to ensuring that the voice of workers is heard—those with that lived experience and understanding and skills—and that they're listened to as part of this transition.
Turning to the basic income pilot, as Members will know, on 28 June, I gave a statement announcing the start of the basic income for young care leavers in Wales pilot. The pilot is a radical and innovative project, offering financial stability to over 500 people leaving care in Wales, and many of you across this Chamber will have heard the moving statements from young people who are embarking on that pilot. It is an incredibly exciting project, giving financial stability to a generation of young people. Too many people leaving care face huge barriers to achieving their hopes and ambitions, such as problems with getting a safe and stable home to securing a job and building a fulfilling career, and this scheme will help people live a life free of such barriers and limitations. But we will carefully evaluate the lessons learnt from the pilot. Listening to everyone who takes part will be crucial in determining the success of this globally ambitious project, and we will examine whether basic income is an efficient way to support society's most vulnerable and not only benefits the individual but wider society too.
The evaluation will consider the impact of the pilot in terms of improvements in the experiences of individual care and how being part of the pilot has affected young people's lives, with regular feedback from recipients who will ensure an evaluation actually is based on their experiences and supports improvement to the pilot as it's rolled out. But, of course, it is intended that the pilot will also provide valuable information to test the stated benefits of basic income, such as addressing poverty and unemployment and improving health and financial well-being. So, it's likely to provide that valuable information and insight for the future about how the concept of basic income could apply to other groups more widely. As Members have highlighted today, it's the design and implementation testing some of the principles of basic income.
Now, acting Deputy Presiding Officer, I support this Member's motion today. It's very much in line with the Welsh Government. We've heard from the Welsh Conservatives today, echoing, I fear, many of the statements we're hearing from leadership candidates: free market, small state, deregulation, cutting taxes, cutting public services. We believe in a state that intervenes for a just transition and that we should explore every opportunity to make that work. Diolch yn fawr.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I call on Jane Dodds to reply to the debate.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much, and I thank everyone who has taken part in this debate.

Jane Dodds AS: Can I thank my co-submitters, Jack Sargeant, Carolyn and Luke as well? Diolch yn fawr i chi i gyd. Thank you to everybody also who took part, and I'm just going to pick up on some of the points that were raised, if I may. Jack, thank you for your continued support for a basic income for our care-experienced young people. That has been such a wonderful and significant change for those young people. And also you've highlighted the real experience from Alyn and Deeside of that unjust transition from fossil fuels to virtually no employment for those people. So, we must address that.
I'm going to turn to our Conservative contributors, to, firstly, Joel—thank you very much for your contributions. You talked about not understanding the need for a transition from fossil fuels to a greener way of working. Well, let me give you some evidence. We've got one here in Wales: Aberpergwm, a mine where we are looking to extend the licence, so that coal can come out of the ground still. You know that I've spoken out against that. Now, let's think if we could offer something to those workers that said, 'You don't need to work in this fossil-fuel industry. We want to support you while you become skilled up, while you look for jobs, while you have that real safety net whilst you transition.'
And Janet, wow. I've got a number of things to say, if I may, Janet. Firstly, I sit here not on the Labour benches, but this 'nanny state' has been elected for 22 years, so the Welsh people have actually chosen this Labour Government. I'm thankful to you—I'm very thankful to the Welsh Government—that we are not back in the times where you want us to be, where perhaps there were no women's rights, where children were perhaps down the mines, where there was abuse of workers. You talked about grit, hard work and determination. Some people, sadly, because of illness, because of vulnerability, because of where they live, because of their life chances, because of how they're brought up, aren't able to get that grit, hard work and determination. And I notice, Janet, you're doing something while I'm trying to address some of the points that you've raised. [Interruption.] Diolch, Mabon.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Do you agree that this, a UBI, would actually follow in the proud tradition of Wales, introduced back in 1909, when David Lloyd George introduced the Old Age Pensions Act—a great son of Dwyfor and a great Liberal in his time as well?

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch yn fawr iawn. Yes, let's compliment each other and our political parties, apart from perhaps over on that bench. So, let's—[Interruption.]

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Will you take another intervention, from Huw Irranca-Davies?

Jane Dodds AS: Sorry, Huw. Yes.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: Jane, thank you for giving way so generously. Would you note as well that there is actually a small but significant voice in the Conservative right that actually supports UBI on the basis of freeing people and giving them the ability to be entrepreneurial, to stand on their feet, to experiment, to create their own lives? We have heard none of that today or ever from these benches in any of these debates. Where is that Conservative voice?

Jane Dodds AS: That's absolutely right. There is a view that, actually, universal basic income means that people can be freed up to be those entrepreneurs, to be those self-starters, and it is a shame that we didn't hear some of those positive suggestions from our colleagues over there.
I really just wanted to also talk about how Wales has been innovative. Wales has the Well-being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015, we have stopped the smacking of children, we have free prescriptions, no hospital charges for parking, a moratorium on road building. We are leading in these initiatives, and we should be proud of that. We shouldn't be looking back to the dark ages; we should be looking to the future.
I want to thank Luke as well for his continued support on universal basic income. Diolch yn fawr iawn, Luke. You have talked about how important it is for the poorest and most marginalised in our society to have that just transition, with one in five workers still in those high-carbon industries.
Carolyn, thank you very much. Diolch yn fawr iawn. You talked about that path to zero carbon and how we need to take those tough decisions. You're absolutely right that we have to look at how we can support those people where those tough decisions are needed, because the climate crisis, as you say, is debilitating.
Finally, thank you to the Minister, as well—diolch yn fawr iawn—for your support and for your remarks. The Welsh Government, as we know, declared a climate emergency in 2019. I've said before that this is an emergency, and we should treat it as such. We need to use the time right now to plan how to ensure stability and security for those most vulnerable to the changes that our economy will experience in the coming years. That's why I believe that extending this pilot will give us real insight into how we balance the scales in what could be an unjust transition.
Let's remember that basic income pilots across countries across the world have shown that productivity increases with a basic income, and, again, I just appeal to the Conservatives: please, as I've said before, look at the evidence. Talk to care-experienced young people. Look at what is happening across some of those initiatives—Canada, Namibia, the Finnish experiment—going back many, many years, some of these. Please talk to care-experienced young people, don't make the assumption that it's not going to change their lives—some of us have, and we hear directly from them. So, I just appeal to you, and, if I can help you make contact with them, please do let me know.
We have to transition to net zero, but we can avoid the uncertainty associated with that transition. It needn't be inevitable. I hope the Senedd can signal our support to those workers and communities and continue to lead on a basic income here in the United Kingdom. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for a lively and respectful debate, with me taking the Chair for the first time. The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? [Objection.] There is an objection. And I will therefore defer voting until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

8. Finance Committee Debate: The Welsh Government's spending priorities for 2023-24

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We'll move now to item 8, Finance Committee debate, the Welsh Government's spending priorities for 2023-24. I call on the Chair of the committee to move the motion. Peredur Owen Griffiths.

Motion NDM8060 Peredur Owen Griffiths
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the engagement work undertaken by the Finance Committee regarding the Welsh Government's spending priorities for the 2023-24 budget, and further notes the representations made by participants at the following events:
a) stakeholder event in Llanhilleth Miners’ Institute;
b) workshop with Members from the Welsh Youth Parliament; and
c) citizen engagement focus groups.

Motion moved.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Chair. It's my pleasure to be opening this debate today on the Welsh Government’s spending priorities for 2023-24. I have mentioned previously in this Chamber that engaging with people across Wales is a priority for me as Chair, specifically to listen to the views of stakeholders on what the Welsh Government budget should include.
I am pleased to say that the committee has not been using the summer months to rest on its laurels. In fact, we've been busier than ever. We've been out talking to people who are directly affected by the decisions we make in this place and listening to their views.
Before I begin my contribution this afternoon, I'm very pleased to welcome five Members of the Youth Parliament who are in the public gallery today. I'd like to recognise them all and say hello to Fatmanur, Ruben, Ella, Ffion and Harriet. I'd also like to thank Rosemary, who took part in the workshop but is unable to attend today. These young Members gave up their own time to speak honestly and openly about the issues concerning them. I speak on behalf of all the members of the committee when I say that we were incredibly grateful for their contributions and we were very impressed with their maturity and intelligence, and I hope that we can do justice to their comments this afternoon.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Cadeirydd, our engagement work on the budget for 2023-24 was made up of three strands: the stakeholder event at Llanhilleth Miners Institutein Blaenau Gwent; as mentioned, a workshop with members of the Welsh Youth Parliament; and numerous focus groups with organisations and citizens across Wales. On behalf of the committee, I'd like to thank everyone that has contributed to the work.
However, before turning to the challenges and priorities identified during these sessions, I want to express disappointment that the Welsh Government has once again decided to delay its publication of the draft budget for next year until 13 December at the latest or within four weeks of the UK Government’s autumn budget. Although I do recognise the reasons why the Welsh Government is taking this approach, it is regrettable that this will mean less time for stakeholders to engage with the committee's calls for evidence and scrutiny sessions. Nonetheless, we are grateful that the Minister is open to updating the timetable once the date of the UK Government’s autumn budget is known. We also appreciate the Minister’s willingness to engage with us at a pre-budget stage and look forward to such sessions happening early in the autumn term.
Cadeirydd, I'd like to first talk about the challenges identified. It comes as no surprise to Members when I say that those we spoke to are all facing significant challenges, including inflationary pressures; the cost-of-living crisis; the climate emergency; and COVID recovery, or as a stakeholder told me in Llanhilleth, we are in the midst of a 'perfect storm'. In Llanhilleth, people from front-line services told us that it was costing more to do the same and that many individuals and organisations do not know how to handle rising costs. Stakeholders also told us that the sustainability and affordability of public services is becoming increasingly challenging, but are also increasingly crucial to reducing health inequalities. The Youth Parliament Members we spoke to are also extremely concerned about the cost-of-living crisis, particularly for the most vulnerable in society, and the impact that the widening gap between rich and poor is having on our society.
Turning to specific priorities, the Youth Parliament Members identified health, social services, services for young people, and measures to mitigate the cost-of-living crisis as priorities for next year's budget. Similar themes emerged from discussions in Llanhilleth, which focused on tackling poverty and addressing the cost-of-living crisis; the long-term sustainability of public services; creating a greener Wales; improving services for children and young people; and the impact of increases in transport costs across different sectors. In the citizens focus groups, education and children and young people were prioritised most frequently by participants, followed closely by health and social care.
From those discussions, we can distil these issues into six key priority areas. Firstly, we need to make every effort to get support to those who need it most as quickly as possible. Those in poverty need targeted assistance, and these sadly now include people who work incredibly hard to support vulnerable people in our society, like unpaid carers and child minders. People told us that it wasn't right that those who were doing the caring weren't being cared for themselves, and we desperately need a strategy to make sure that we look after those most at risk.
Secondly, better workforce planning. We were told that there has been a generation of under-investment in training and the public sector workforce and that a cohesive workforce strategy is needed to ensure a resilient public service in Wales and to avoid burn-out and high sickness levels amongst public sector workers.
Thirdly, investment in youth infrastructure. The Welsh Government can and should do more to support young people by providing assistance to avoid the closures of youth centres and provide free transport to improve training, working and social prospects.
Fourthly, increasing capital funding. Those on the front line told us that there is a chronic need to invest in school and hospital buildings and basic infrastructure within public services.
Next, we would like to see a better use of data to develop more effective and joined-up public services. Higher costs mean that we need to make the most of what we have in order to make our public services more sustainable and affordable. The Welsh Government needs to make the most of the data available, so that services can be planned efficiently. Increasing digital literacy in poorer communities could also act as way of ensuring that services and support are provided locally, where the need is greatest.
Finally, stable green funding. On climate change, the Welsh Government needs to put their money where their mouth is and provide dedicated funding to achieve its net-zero targets.
As we all know, it is very easy to come up with spending wish lists, but far more difficult to identify areas where spending could be scaled back. As a result, we were also keen to hear from participants on this issue. The Youth Parliament Members we spoke to recognised that, whilst it is very difficult to retract funding from areas, difficult decisions need to be made by the Welsh Government in order to prioritise areas of real need. For example, participants noted investment in the Welsh language and international relations, but felt that funding for these areas should not be prioritised above delivering services relating to the public's health and well-being.
We heard interesting views on taxes. Notably, not all Youth Parliament Members were aware that the Welsh Government is responsible for raising some of the money it spends. During the focus groups, most participants were against increasing income tax for those who are already struggling financially and felt that any increase in taxes should be directed at those with higher incomes or large businesses. Whilst a similar view was shared during our stakeholder event, it was noted that further taxation on large businesses could lead to businesses moving outside of Wales. I know that this is an area of particular interest to the Minister, and I'd urge her to look into ways in which awareness of our tax-raising powers in Wales can be improved.
So, as I move this motion in my name on behalf of the committee, I look forward to Members taking this opportunity to outline to the Minister and the Finance Committee what the priorities should be for the financial year ahead. Diolch yn fawr.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you. I'm also pleased to see Members of the Youth Parliament here. You're always welcome. Now, we have many speakers to this item—more than we could usually allow in an hour debate, but let's try and get everyone in. So, please aim for four minutes rather than five, and we'll see how things go. Jayne Bryant.

Jayne Bryant AC: I'll begin by reiterating the calls of the Chair of the Finance Committee for proper time for Senedd committees to consider and report on the 2023-24 draft budget. I do very much appreciate the impact on the Welsh Government of events beyond its control, such as the timing of the UK Government's autumn budget, and welcome the Minister's engagement with the Finance Committee about this year's timetable. I urge the Minister to do what she can to give the Senedd time to do justice to its scrutiny of the 2023-24 draft budget.
I'd now like to raise some important cross-policy issues that I believe are relevant to all committees and indeed all Members. The first is about understanding the impact of the budget on different groups of people. I welcome the Minister's statement of 5 July on gender budgeting and the contribution of Members from across the Siambr to that debate. I agree with the Minister that gender budgeting provides a valuable lens through which we can view the impact of spending decisions on women and on girls, and I hope that the Welsh Government is able to learn from that experience of other countries and use that learning to accelerate the time it takes to embed gender budgeting here in Wales.
Of course, we as a committee are concerned about the impact of the budget on children and young people. On 8 February, I expressed to Members our concern that this Government did not publish any child rights impact assessments to show how children's rights shaped the 2022-23 draft budget allocation for children and young people. In fact, it didn't mention children's rights once in the entire strategic integrated impact assessment. So, could the Minister confirm whether she's listened to our concerns and perhaps outline that children's rights have shaped Welsh Government decisions about the 2023-24 spending priorities?
The second cross-policy issue that I would like to raise today is the so-called revised baseline. The revised baseline is a set of figures that the Welsh Government uses to compare next year's draft budget with last year's expenditure. I'm sure we're not the only committee that struggles to understand where the revised baseline figures come from. They're not the previous year's draft budget, and they're not the previous year's supplementary budget, either. But let me be clear: I do support the Welsh Government's stated intention to enable more suitable comparisons between financial years, but if committees are struggling to understand how the revised baseline is calculated, that means it isn't clear enough. It needs to be calculated transparently and consistently. Committees need to know where the funding is going up, where it's going down, where it's being cut altogether, who will be affected and why. Given the substantial overlap across committees' remits, the approach to calculating the baseline must be consistent across ministerial portfolios too. And I'd warmly welcome working jointly with other committees to ensure that the Welsh Government retains a sharp focus on these critical cross-policy issues.
I'll now highlight two priorities for the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Our work to date has repeatedly raised concerns about the mental health of children and young people. We're concerned about mental health because of the impact of COVID. We're concerned in the light of the impact of widespread peer-on-peer sexual harassment on mental health—our report that was published this morning. We're concerned about what we've heard during our inquiry on pupil absence about the links between mental health and school attendance, and I have no doubt that concerns will be raised by students and others as we embark on our next inquiry into mental health support in higher education this autumn. I know the Government's commitment to this agenda, and I urge the Government to commit funding to deal with this critically important issue, with families, in schools, in hospitals, in universities, alongside third sector partners and elsewhere.
We've also recently launched our Senedd-long inquiry into the implementation of the additional learning needs reforms and the new Curriculum for Wales. We've heard throughout our work to date about the importance of supporting school staff to implement those reforms effectively. This means giving local authorities enough funding to provide for schools' core budgets. It also means working with local government to encourage them to actually spend this money on schools. On top of that, it will require targeted funding from the education budget to support specific priorities too. We urge the Welsh Government to ensure that these ambitious reforms have the financial backing that they need to succeed. They're too important to the lives of children and young people not to. Diolch.

Peter Fox AS: I welcome the opportunity to contribute to today's debate as a member of the Finance Committee, and I support the comments made by our Chair of the committee, and also welcome our Members of the Youth Parliament here today. Over the past few years we have experienced a series of huge challenges, from the pandemic to the current inflationary pressures and, of course, cost-of-living crisis. It's more important than ever, therefore, that we listen to the views of the people of Wales and that Welsh Government makes the people's priorities their priorities.
It was clear from discussions that tackling the cost-of-living crisis and supporting families through these difficult times is a major issue that the budget must address with urgency. A number of stakeholders welcomed the existing Welsh Government schemes to help with the cost-of-living crisis, but they felt that this support was not reaching certain sectors, particularly unpaid carers. There was also an acknowledgement that there is a need to expand discretionary funds, particularly so that people who earn more than the various benefits thresholds but find themselves in a financially vulnerable position can access much-needed support.
In relation to the cost of living and inflationary pressures, a wide range of concerns were raised about the future sustainability of public services. For example, a stakeholder commented that there, and I quote, are
'likely to be unpalatable choices ahead'
for the Welsh Government and service providers. There are real concerns that a squeeze in budgets will impact on service provision, and that the continuing impacts of the pandemic coupled with staff shortages will place more strain on already stretched services.
Local authorities are also facing a myriad of pressures and funding needs that quite simply must be addressed if we are to begin to tackle the issues facing us. So, as part of the budget there is a real need for an ambitious, fully costed plan to recruit more staff in things like schools, social care and the Welsh NHS to increase the resilience of services and to address the structural issues. There also must be a longer term funding strategy for our key public services.
A final issue that I'd like to raise, Deputy Llywydd, is that of education,as we heard from some Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament about their concerns about catching up with lost education as a consequence of the disruption over recent years, whilst other stakeholders noted that the cost of school transport has increased exponentially. Thus it's important that that Government continues to invest in education, particularly to support the successful roll-out of the new curriculum. Furthermore, there have been calls for the Government to further harness the potential of increased research and innovation to strengthen the Welsh economy and to boost skills. In light of this, will the Minister commit to supporting the FE and HE sectors as much as possible and invest in their skills base?
To conclude, acting Llywydd, I in no way underestimate the scale of the challenge facing Ministers. The events of the past few years have taken their toll on our communities and they need our support. And, of course, the Government does not operate on its own. We must see, as we did during the pandemic, support from the UK Government that matches the scale of the issues facing us. But it’s vital that the Welsh Government gets its upcoming budget right and listens to the views of communities when it’s deciding its spending priorities. Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you for being succinct. Llyr Gruffydd.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: Thank you very much, acting Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you to the committee chair for giving us an opportunity to discuss this issue. I also want to thank the co-operation agreement between Plaid Cymru and the Welsh Government because it will hopefully ensure that we can look forward to an exciting and transformational programme in the next financial year.
The first obvious thing I would ask for is to ensure that the expenditure in 2023-24 responds to the commitments of that co-operation agreement to make sure that the policies that will, of course, improve the lives of the people of Wales are given the financial support to succeed and to flourish in order to ensure, as the Government reminds us, that we are delivering a fairer, greener and stronger Wales. But I would say that, as a result of the co-operation agreement, Wales will be even fairer, even greener and even stronger. So, that's it—that's the first point I wanted to make.
The Government, of course, tells us that the focus is on using or moving towards preventative methods of governance, and that's something that we support, but in order to deliver that effectively, you do have to go through that transition period of investing in preventative areas on the one hand, whilst, of course, we are still paying to deal with the outcomes of not having invested in that sufficiently in the past. That transition is going to create tensions and pressures when it comes to budgeting. But the budget has to follow the intention. Although redirecting funds and focus is difficult, we all know that that would ultimately pay off. So, I do hope that we will see further progress, and significant progress in that transition, in terms of the focus of expenditure in the coming financial year. Some of my fellow Members on these benches will outline some of the specific issues that we want to highlight in this debate, but I will just touch on a few in the time that I have remaining this afternoon.
We, of course, are eager to see better pay and conditions for staff in the public sector—something I know that many of us share across the Chamber. And despite a Conservative Government not addressing this issue, which of course means that many workers here face pay cuts in real terms and that it makes it more difficult for them to make ends meet, the reality facing us now is a summer of discontent, possible strikes and so on. I would, therefore, be keen to hear from the Minister what her intentions are in terms of planning for salary increases in the public sector in next year's budget. Some would argue that, if we could move more quickly, we'd be eager to do so this year. But whilst looking at the focus of the debate, I think, certainly, there is now an opportunity to tackle this and show clear intent for the next year.
Another obvious thing is the broader response to the cost-of-living crisis. We know that we need to safeguard homes from debts and increasing costs. Inflation, as it is, will continue to increase; the staggering cost of energy. We already know that 71 per cent of the people of Wales say that they have deliberately reduced the quality of the food that they buy in order to respond to this crisis. And that makes the process of preventative governance even more difficult, because we are moving in the wrong direction before we've even begun. We've mentioned the cap on energy prices.Now, I think in the next budget, we need to look at expanding the qualification for the winter fuel payment so that more vulnerable people do qualify, such as those eligible for pension credits.
Just to conclude, so that I keep this brief at the request of the temporary Presiding Officer, I'll refer to the point made about the timetable of the budget in terms of scrutiny in the Senedd here. It is something that we face on an annual basis. I think this is the fourth year where scrutiny has been restricted in one way or another because of our reliance on the timetables of fiscal events in Westminster. I do think that it's fair now to look at the protocol again, because whilst exceptional circumstances in Westminster are one thing, I would argue that following the protocol in Wales is an exceptional circumstance because it never happens. I think that it's timely that we should look at that anew. Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Wonderful. Thank you. Mike Hedges.

Mike Hedges AC: Thank you, acting Presiding Officer. The priorities in every budget are the same: to improve health, support local government, improve the environment and reduce carbon emissions, improve educational attainment, improve the economy and improve the quality of life for people in Wales and reduce or preferably end poverty. Well, we have all these debates as we all have different ways as to how we want to achieve it.
Within health, I'm calling for the prioritisation of health improvement and primary care. Primary care is the point of contact for all non-A&E entry into the health service, and a better resourced and funded primary care sector would reduce the need for hospital care. As we've seen, year on year, when the health boards get the money, primary care and GP practices get a smaller and smaller proportion of the cake.We know that the following improves health: wash your hands often, and we saw during COVID that this led to a huge reduction in gastric problems; sleep for seven to nine hours every night; maintain good posture; eat a healthy, balanced diet; drink plenty of fluids; be more active; minimise stress levels; and reduce pollution.
The health effects of obesity, which is probably the biggest problem that we're facing at the moment and one that we look away from when we should be looking at it, are: high blood pressure, additional fat tissue in the body that needs oxygen and nutrients in order to live; diabetes—obesity is a major cause of type 2 diabetes, which is a major cost to the health service and we could be doing something to try to reduce that expenditure, and it's not about not treating people with type 2 diabetes, it's getting fewer people to have type 2 diabetes; heart disease—hardening of the arteries is present 10 times more often in obese people, and whereas we've seen a continued reduction in smoking, unfortunately, obesity is going in the opposite direction. Obesity is now the second biggest cause of cancer and, I would guess, when we get the next list out of major causes of cancer, it'll take over as No. 1. I think we really have got to treat obesity as the most important thing that we are facing.
The Welsh Government needs to promote a healthy lifestyle and thus reduce the number of people will health conditions. Is it any surprise that people with a poor diet living in cold, damp conditions are more prone to ill health? The Attlee Government, which I often speak highly of, from 1945 to 1951, realised the link between housing and health, but unfortunately this has not been followed by any subsequent Government. We need to build high-quality council houses across Wales to improve people's lives and health. Is it any surprise that people living in cold, damp conditions that are very expensive to heat are themselves more and more likely to suffer ill health and become a cost to the health service, whereas if they lived in a decent place of accommodation and they were well fed and well looked after, they wouldn't?
Improving the environment and providing green spaces and better air quality improves health and also improves the life of those who are living in the area. We need to take action now. Can I give a non-budget suggestion? It is that local development plans designate all land in a council area, including areas of tree planting, agriculture and land to promote biodiversity—that it actually designates every inch on the map, rather than saying, 'This is for housing, this is for developing businesses', saying, 'This is here. We think you can grow trees here, we think you can have agriculture here, we think that this has to be protected', not because it's in a green wedge, not because it's an area of outstanding natural beauty or any other reasons we have, a site of special scientific interest, or any of the other reasons we have, but because we think this is important for the environment, without having to go through any stages of designating anything else.
Successful areas, including the UK, have high-quality universities, a steady supply of new graduates, a critical mass of technology companies and research and development taking place, with large numbers of start-up companies. Can the Welsh Government's economic policy target things like life sciences, ICT and financial services? As I regularly say, we need more Admiral insurance and fewer LGs. As I've said previously, and as Plaid Cymru—in fact, yourself, acting Presiding Officer—raised yesterday, too many Welsh graduates do not stay in Wales due to a lack of opportunity, not a lack of will to stay in Wales, but a lack of opportunities to find employment here. Creating a highly educated workforce is the best economic driver we have.
Things that can be done include: use universities as drivers of growth; development of science parks; universities' schools of entrepreneurshipopen to everyone; build a food processing industry as Arla have achieved in Denmark; get the added value from food processing, not just the value of the agricultural products; understand the importance of services provided by local government. Local government services are important to people, from parks to social services to road maintenance to education. These services are essential to the well-being of local people.
There are areas that we can cut back on, and I would say that we need to look at some of the money we spend on economic development that achieves neither of those words.

Heledd Fychan AS: Thank you for the opportunity to participate. One of the things that I thought was very interesting—and this has already been referred to—was the view of young people and the Welsh Youth Parliament. I think this is endorsed by the things that have been shared with me as a Member for South Wales Central in terms of the cost of public transport. Ruben Kelman has written to many of us, being very proactive as a Member of the Youth Parliament, but has shared the fact that the cost of public transport, for those who don't qualify for free travel to school, does mean that this has an impact on attendance.
Jayne mentioned this in terms of all the things we need to support young people, and I think it is very important that we do see, in terms of all of the comments that were made, that the increasing cost of public transport is something that we do need to be conscious of. With the cost-of-living crisis, the fact that we are now receiving evidence that young people can't go to school because of the cost of public transport is something that I would ask the Government to look at as a matter of urgency, because I do think that if they're not in school, they're not going to benefit from the wealth of experiences they'd get there, and this is a fundamental right for our young people.
Also, there was reference in terms of the summer programmes for young people, which are so important. Very often, the barrier for those from families facing the cost-of-living crisis is the cost of public transport to access these events. So, clearly, we're pleased to see that the Government is making that investment in these summer programmes, such as the Summer of Fun and so on, but if the most vulnerable people can't attend them and get there, then how can everyone take advantage of them? So, as you look at next year's budget, could we look at something to support public transport specifically in terms of children and young people, so that they can benefit from all of the things that we are investing in? I think that would be of great assistance. Thank you.

Huw Irranca-Davies AC: I welcome this opportunity to speak in this Finance Committee debate on the Welsh Government’s spending priorities for 2023-24, and drawing on the committee’s experience of its first ever budget scrutiny on the 2022-23 draft budget. The reason I'm speaking is very focused on the issue of justice, but I would say just in passing that it's great to hear the contributions already in terms of the way that young people and children have influenced and shaped, with their voices being heard within this Chamber already.
We decided as a committee, particularly with the addition of justice to our remit, that this was going to be a regular feature of our work programme. So, we do look forward in line with that to be contributing to the scrutiny of future Welsh Government budgets. On the matter of justice, we took great interest in the Welsh Government’s proposals for spending in this area during our scrutiny of the draft budget for 2022-23. We have also, of course, more recently seen the Welsh Government publish its work programme, 'Delivering Justice for Wales', which includes its plans across a great breadth of areas, including criminal justice, family justice, access to justice, the legal sector and civil and administrative justice. So, we are looking forward to seeing how this programme progresses, and, indeed, the Welsh Government has now committed on a number of occasions to regularly report on its progress to our committee and to the Senedd.
This is an area of real interest to our stakeholders as well, as we found when we engaged with legal practitioners and litigants in person earlier this year on the question of access to justice. Some participants in that engagement activity were keen to acknowledge the investment that has been made by the Welsh Government in things such as social welfare advice, following the implementation of the Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012, but they said that further support was going to be needed to meet the demand that is out there.
So, to help us and our stakeholders and this Senedd, indeed, understand how much of the Welsh Government's budget goes towards spending on justice and where that spending goes, we have called for that spending to be disaggregated in the future. And we thank the Counsel General for telling us that the Welsh Government will now indeed explore the ways that it can improve the level of information it provides about justice expenditure, so we look forward to seeing the outcome of that. I don't know whether it's too early at this stage for the Minister to actually give us any update. I suspect it's ongoing. But thank you to the Chair of the FinanceCommittee for organising this important debate today, and we look forward to working with you and other Senedd committees as we scrutinise the Welsh Government's spending proposals this year and going ahead.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Alun Davies.

Alun Davies AC: I'm grateful to you, acting Presiding Officer. I'm grateful also to the Finance Committee, grateful to you for you coming to Llanhilleth, of course, to conduct some of your work, but also for hosting this debate this afternoon, which I think is absolutely crucial in setting the terms of the debate that we'll have on the Welsh Government's budget over the coming months.
Unlike others, without wishing to be churlish, I don't share the committee's view on the difficulties the Welsh Government is facing in publishing a budget in the coming year, because I think we're facing, possibly, the most difficult financial challenges that we've faced since the crisis in 2008, and I think it's right and proper that the Government takes time to consider those challenges and publishes a draft budget when it's able to do so and is in a position to debate those matters with us. So, I don't criticise the Minister for delaying the budget at all at the moment.
But we have to understand that when we were debating this issues of finance and spending in 2008, we were only debating and discussing a spending budget. We are now debating a budget where we're also responsible for raising part of our own income, and that makes this debate absolutely fundamentally different to the one we had over a decade and a half ago, because since then what we've seen—. Through austerity, we've seen stagnation in growth, we've seen stagnation in GDP, we've seen stagnation in incomes. And not only have we seen stagnation in income, but we've seen changes to the distribution of income, where those people who are in the top decile of incomes available to them have seen greater increases than those who receive less, and as a consequence there is going to be less funding available, I believe, in the Welsh Government's budget, and more challenges facing people in Wales. So, how do we as a Parliament and how does a Government publish this information, and how do we address those challenges? I think addressing the challenges, both of our economy, of our communities and then of our people I think is the biggest challenge facing us. And rather than list spending requirements, I believe we need to have a richer debate, a bigger debate, about how we raise this money and how we raise the funds in order to deliver those spending programmes.
I'm seeing real challenges at the moment. We've heard a lot from the UK Government in recent years about levelling up. We now know that that is over. We've seen it in the last week. It was always a slogan and not a policy, but now we've seen it dumped in a race to the bottom in terms of tax cuts and spending requirements. I asked the Minister, if any one of the Tory candidates currently standing for the leadership of the Tory party is elected, how the income cuts from tax cuts will impact the Welsh budget, because if we're saying we need more money to address all these different priorities, and I agree with all of them, then how do you do that on a declining budget? How do you do it in a budget that's been declining because of the tax cuts promised by London, and, then, when you're unable to raise taxes because of the impact of the recession, of the cost of living, on our own tax base?
And how will we replace lost EU funds? I was speaking to the British Heart Foundation today about the impact of lost EU funds on Welsh research. Now, universities in Wales have traditionally relied, of course, upon the Horizon programme, but the incompetence and duplicity of the UK Government in dealing with the European Union means that we may well lose access to those programmes. So, how will we support universities in the future? And also, acting Presiding Officer, the impact of Brexit on our economy: we know that Brexit is having an impact on our ability to grow our economy. We know it's having an impact on companies and people, we know it's going to have an impact on our budget, what that impact will be, and I believe it's important that we understand these things. But it is also important that we understand the impact of inflation on services that have been delivered. What is the impact of inflation going to be on the NHS or on education? What is the impact of inflation going to be on local government budgets? Brexit has been a calamity for this country. It is an ongoing calamity and is at the root of many of the economic challenges we face. But we have to understand how the Welsh Government is facing up to these things. So, without wishing to test your patience, acting Presiding Officer, I would like the Welsh Government to publish more information—I think the Welsh Government's done very well, as it happens, over the last few years in publishing information to support its budget—but I would like to see more information published earlier to enable us to understand the challenges facing the Welsh Government and then to be able to come to political decisions on our priorities as a consequence of that understanding. Thank you very much.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you very much. Jane Dodds.

Jane Dodds AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro. Thank you so much to the committee for their work in producing this report. As the Minister will know, I want to see a children and young people's budget. As chair of the cross-party group on children and families, I was particularly interested to read the views of the Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament. They've highlighted improving mental health services as a key priority of theirs for this term, and again, it was highlighted as a key priority for them when the committee engaged with them. Key stakeholders identified by the committee also called on the Welsh Government to implement a robust mental health plan across Welsh universities, thereby once again looking at the mental health needs of our young people. I would fully endorse this approach, but more needs to be done to help all children and young people with their mental health.
In April this year, 59 per cent of young people were waiting over four weeks for a child and adolescent mental health services appointment. Successive Governments, both UK and those devolved, have spoken of the importance of bringing about parity between mental and physical health, and yet, waiting lists remain shockingly high. So, I'd urge the Government, when thinking through their priorities for the next budget, to once and for all grapple with this truly serious issue.
As well as young people, I'd like to talk about teeth, once again coming back to dentists. We really have a lack of NHS dentists, not just in my region of Mid and West Wales, but across Wales and across the UK. It's an issue many of us have raised. The lack of dentists, particularly for our children and young people once again means that this is a real health issue going forward, and I'm sure many of us have had this in our inboxes over the last year. I've had constituents contact me from across the region complaining of waiting lists of years, rather than months, in order to be able to be treated by an NHS dentist. One constituent—and this is a little warning alert here—had been driven to fill in their own cavity with a take-home kit because they'd waited so long for an appointment. That is so sad and not acceptable. When I pressed on this issue, the answer just seems to be focused on how we might be able to recruit and retain more dentists, and whilst I do entirely agree, there simply hasn't been a material change for those desperately waiting for treatment. So, I'd like to press the Minister: when considering areas to increase funding in the upcoming budget, a clear commitment to the dental sector here in Wales would have a radical impact on the current waiting lists and on our children and young people's health.
Another issue that I think warrants immediate action from the Welsh Government is that of building fire safety. Let's think about what we're talking about here: individuals and families are living in blocks of flats that they know to be unsafe, who are still waiting for remediation works to start. I would urge the Government to put funds to use now in remediationworks and in pursuing developers to contribute in fully righting their wrongs.
And finally, I do want to echo what my colleague Heledd Fychan talked about here. In January I raised the proposal of free public transport for under-25-year-olds. The Deputy Minister for Climate Change indicated his broad support for such a proposal, and suggested it needed further investigation. Since then, Germany has introduced a €9 monthly pass for unlimited travel on buses, trains, trams and subways. And the Spanish Government only today announced that all short to medium-distance train journeys will be free from September. So, therefore, we can do it here in Wales. Not only would this proposal help us march towards our net-zero proposal, but would also be key to addressing social isolation and exclusion.
So, finally, I would like to ask the Minister whether she would be willing to meet with me to look at a children and young people's budget going forward. Diolch yn fawr iawn.

John Griffiths AC: I will be speaking in my capacity as Chair of the Local Government and Housing Committee. Appropriate housing has long been a key concern for our committee, and we would like to urge Welsh Government to prioritise funding to ensure that as many as possible in Wales have a safe place to live, working towards everyone in Wales having a safe place to live.
When I spoke to you in the draft budget debate earlier this year, I emphasised the committee's concern at the high number of people living in temporary accommodation. It's crucial for people to be moved into long-term, permanent accommodation if homelessness is to be rare, brief and unrepeated, as Welsh Government has pledged in its strategy. Since that time, we've seen an increase in the number of people in temporary accommodation, including people from Ukraine, who have been placed temporarily into Welsh Government's welcome centres. We believe that securing long-term accommodation in safe surroundings should be a key priority. Local authorities and registered social landlords have a key role to play here. They face substantial pressures in securing suitable accommodation for those in need. We recognise Welsh Government's commitment to reforming homelessness services and to work with public services to provide appropriate housing. We therefore urge the Welsh Government to reflect that commitment in the draft budget by making adequate provision in next year's budget, and prioritising funds for those purposes.
Another key area of concern to the committee is building safety and undertaking the remedial work needed to make buildings safe, and we would also like to see this prioritised in next year's budget. In fact, members of the committee met earlier today with representatives from the Welsh Cladiators group, who continue to raise their many concerns and emphasise their frustration at the rate and pace of progress being made.
On the local government side, we welcomed the settlement for local authorities last year and hoped that it would enable them to undertake longer term planning, rather than simply reacting to immediate pressures. Since then, we've seen prices continue to rise across the board, which is clearly adding to the pressure on local services. We urge the Welsh Government to consider the impact of the cost-of-living crisis on local authorities, and provide a settlement that enables them to delivers services sustainably. Diolch yn fawr.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I appreciate that the contributions have been concise today. I hope we can get two or three more in, depending on how concise they are. Luke Fletcher.

Luke Fletcher AS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd dros dro. I'll keep it short. I understand that the Government is being pulled in all different directions by Members on what they should be spending on, and there are a number of priorities to consider. I would like to make the case for increasing the payments of the education maintenance allowance. It was a massive relief to families when it was introduced back in 2004. It continues to be a massive relief for families, and I think, actually, it's a massive positive that the Welsh Government has managed to retain it for as long as they have. Currently a payment is worth £30 a week. It's been that since 2004, and the Bevan Foundation has rightly pointed out that in order for it to be of the same value as it was in 2004, the payment would need to increase to £45 a week. So, I would urge the Government to consider increasing EMA payments.

Rhianon Passmore AC: As a member of the Finance Committee, I am pleased with the proactive approach also that the committee has taken to seek out the views of the Welsh people in helping shape the Welsh Government spending priority, a figure of almost £21 billion for the financial year 2023-24. I also want to make comment on the stoic work of the Chair, Peredur Owen Griffiths, and also fellow committee members. It is right and proper also that the committee does undertake meaningful citizen stakeholder engagement, and I'm proud of the work that's been undertaken and that we do engage proactively and purposely with Members of the Welsh Youth Parliament. So, thank you to all of those who participated and who will continue to engage. Minister, let us, though, not forget, and always remember, that the biggest consultation exercise with the Welsh people is always that conducted in democratic elections and the freedom of choice at the ballot box, and I'm mindful that the Welsh Labour Government was re-elected to commit to fulfilling those priorities of the Welsh public.
The current challenges, though, that we all face, are multitudinal and intense as we emerge from the COVID-19 pandemic and as we still wade our way through the non-oven-ready Brexit. Today, we are faced with a Tory cost-of-living crisis that is attacking every single household, with inflation raging at levels not seen in over four decades and projected to skyrocket further. This is seismic and catastrophic for a nation with no functioning welfare net. And though I don't have time to mention it now, it is right that gender budgeting will also be on the agenda for our Minister. It was clear from the feedback that, as a committee, we received, that the public do value—hugely value—our public services, and that they are concerned about the climate emergency that we face, and they do want to see a Welsh Government on their side. Only last week, whilst addressing the Senedd, the First Minister of Wales set out the Welsh Government's legislative plans for the year ahead, and I won't go into detail, but a Bill on single-use plastics, a clean air Bill, an agricultural Bill, a Bill on infrastructure consenting, a Bill on coal tip safety—so important to our communities. So, the Welsh Government is clearly demarking its strong desire to address the challenge of climate change and to support the environment.
Much attention has focused on the proposed Senedd reform Bill, but it is important not to overlook the bus Bill that will be brought forward to enable all levels of government in Wales to work together to design bus networks that truly interconnect and truly serve communities. This in itself will be transformational for those we all serve. Additionally, the Welsh Government is committed to introducing more fairness, as citizens face a flood—a torrent—of rising costs, with a Bill on local government finance in late 2023 to reform fundamentally the way citizens pay council tax in Wales.
And finally, within the current devolved framework of competencies, such legislation is imperative and I know that the Welsh Government—ethical government—will seek to prioritise the people's concerns, with policy made for the people to mitigate climate change and to tackle the truly horrendous impacts of the worst ever Tory cost-of-living crisis. But Wales and this place need, as part of the United Kingdom, to fundamentally redress the lack of finance to Wales and, to do this, we need a Labour United Kingdom Government, elected in a general election as soon as possible, both for the people and of the people. Thank you. Diolch.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: And we did succeed in calling all speakers. Altaf Hussain.

Altaf Hussain AS: Thank you very much. They have addressed the point I wanted to speak to. Thank you.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Could I call on the Minister for Finance and Local Government, Rebecca Evans?

Rebecca Evans AC: Diolch. I'd just like to say thank you to everybody for their contributions this afternoon, but particularly so to the Finance Committee for bringing forward the debate today. I do think that this has been an absolutely excellent innovation in recent years, and it really does help focus the mind in terms of understanding what the priorities of colleagues are. So, thank you so much for everybody's contributions to the debate today. The Senedd will, of course, recall that we were able to publish a three-year budget settlement earlier this year, and that does provide at least a level of certainty and stability to our partners and to the people of Wales. But now we are facing very much a new set of challenges that we have to consider in our next budget and that, of course, includes continuing to respond to the ongoing impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic.
Like many other countries, we're facing soaring inflation and that's impacting on our existing commitments. It's also causing our budget settlement to be worth £600 million less than when we allocated it in October 2021, and this will be very much at the forefront of our minds as we start to consider our budget for next year. And, of course, we are experiencing the ongoing cost-of-living crisis as well as the conflict in Ukraine, but our commitment as a Government to supporting communities and citizens as they navigate these issues remains completely unwavering.

Rebecca Evans AC: Our fiscal position is very difficult. We face several uncertainties as a result of the ongoing events in Whitehall. We are yet to understand when the next UK Government fiscal event will be, and the UK Government hasn't, at this point, indicated that there will be any additional funding coming to Wales, and we absolutely cannot rely on any assumption that there will be additional funding. Indeed, our thinking has to include the prospect that we will a see a reduced settlement, and we need to prepare for that scenario for all the reasons that Alun Davies outlined in terms of the current UK Government and its potential candidates for Prime Minister's approaches to taxes, so that will be very much at the forefront of our minds as we start preparing over the summer.
I think also the Chair recognised how hard this is, and I'm glad that the Finance Committee engaged with communities and young people, asking that important question about where would we cut if we have to cut, or if we want to cut to invest in some other areas. So, it's interesting to find out what people's priorities are and their level of tolerance for cuts in particular areas. So, I'm grateful for that work and for the entire report on the part of the Finance Committee. It's been really, really really helpful, and I'm grateful for all the engagement that you've been doing.
So, I do want to respond to some of the specific points, but what I won't do is respond to the requests for additional funding in particular policy or spending areas, because I think that that's not the purpose of today; today is for me to hear from colleagues. But I do want to recognise and confirm that I've heard what people have been saying about the cost-of-living crisis, mental health, especially young people, youth infrastructure, unpaid carers, public services, including education and other local government services, the importance of investing in R&I to boost skills and the economy and all of the challenges around public sector pay and conditions. And then other contributions focused around health improvement and primary care, dentistry, and we also heard about the importance of investing in decarbonisation and climate change and green spaces and air quality. We also heard about public transport and concerns especially about ensuring that children and young people are able to access it. And justice was referenced, as was building safety and housing and homelessness more generally, and all of this with very much a strong focus on prevention. And of course the arguments were made in favour of the EMA as well. So, lots of food for thought, I think, there for us to consider as we start to prepare for the budget.
But, in terms of some of the process points that I think are the most useful things I can respond to today, in terms of the timing of the budget, I share the Finance Committee's concerns and disappointment at it, and I think the reason for some of the ways in which we've found ourselves, in the past few years, tabling the draft budget later than we would normally anticipate, is because, at the time of the budget protocol, the UK Government had its main fiscal event in the spring, but now we seem to be responding very much to significant autumn statements, and so I think that the point about looking at the protocol and having some discussions around that is an important discussion to have.
I also think that it's important to recognise the points made about raising awareness of our tax-raising powers. I think that the budget is a really important time to do that. We've done quite a lot in recent years to try and make tax and the budget more generally more accessible to people. So, we've got the ready reckoner on the Welsh Government's website, so people can put their information in and find out how much, relatively, the Welsh Government is spending of their contribution on the various areas for which we are responsible. We also have the Beaufort survey, which asks people about their awareness of Welsh rates of income tax, for example. We're seeing an increase, but it's too slow and we need to do more engagement work there. And we also make an effort to engage with children and young people through children and young people's leaflets, and also I engage with schools and economics students and others to try and have these conversations with children and young people.
I've heard the calls for a clearer narrative around several elements of the budget and also for more transparency. I'm always keen to publish as much as we can and to be as transparent as we possibly can. So, any specific requests for further information, or areas that we can improve, I'm keen to respond to.We do have our budget improvement plan,which is a rolling five-year plan in terms of improving the way we do our budget and the way we communicate it. So, I'm obviously happy to explore what we can add in that particular regard as well.
We do publish an awful lot of information, I have to say. We publish the chief economist's report, lots and lots of data around tax, we've got our distributional impact analysis, our new approach to carbon impacts—so, lots of information is available, but, if there's more needed, I'm keen to be providing that as well. We also provide important information through the year. Reference was made to the Welsh rates of income tax and the outturn data. So, the outturn data for last year will be available this month, and I'll be publishing it alongside a written statement. This is important, because this is the first time that this data has an impact on next year's budget in real life, so I think that that will help us again in terms of thinking ahead to our budget for next year.
Overall, Chair, I'll just finish, really, by just confirming that we do remain a Government committed to a fairer, greener and more prosperous Wales. Our upcoming budget and our preparations for it will keep these values very much at the core. The challenges that we face are clearly very difficult, and we have significant pressures on our budgets, but we must have these values and our vision there to guide us. Just to close, I absolutely welcome today's debate, it's been really instructive, and I look forward to continuing engagement with colleagues across the Senedd in the coming months. Diolch.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you, Minister. I call on Peredur Owen Griffithsto reply to the debate.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you, Chair. I'd like to thank Members who have contributed to today’s debate. This has been a golden opportunity for the Senedd to influence the Welsh Government’s thinking before it publishes the draft budget later this year. I hope the Minister will take onboard the views raised today.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: Thank you to all Members and committee Chairs for their input into the debate, and the Minister's response. It was clear that the cost-of-living crisis comes through as a major priority, with many Members referencing it. We heard from many contributors today, and I'm not going to rehearse the arguments and the comments we heard, but the broad areas were mental health, education, paid and unpaid carers, pay and conditions for public sector workers, infrastructure and capital spend, public transport, access to justice, raising revenue, health and social care and housing. The questions raised are many, and the answers are not easy. I hope this debate will help to crystallise some of that for the Minister. We've also heard the Minister's commitment to engage, and I certainly welcome that.
As I mentioned at the beginning of this debate, these issues are not a surprise to Members. They are significant, challenging and complex, but what we did hear from the people of Wales was the need and a willingness to act to do something about the difficulties they are facing. What the people we spoke to need more than anything now is for the Welsh Government to listen to their concerns and to focus its resources appropriately. This will allow us to make the best use of what we have. This will allow us to have services that are sustainable. This will also allow us to address the concerns and the priorities of the Welsh public.
We will continue to raise these issues with the Minister in committee once the draft budget is laid before this Senedd later this year, and I hope that other committees will do the same within their own subject areas.

Peredur Owen Griffiths AS: I'd like to thank those that are the main drivers of today’s debate: our stakeholders and the people that we spoke with. They are central to our work, and we're grateful for their continued engagement. Finally, I'd like to thank the clerking team and the research team who work very hard in the background to facilitate the committee's work and allow us to scrutinise effectively the Government. Thank you very much.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: Thank you. The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? I hear no objection. And therefore the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

9. Debate on the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee Report: 'Refreshing Wales’ Bovine TB Eradication Programme'

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: We'll move on now to item 9, debate on the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee report, 'Refreshing Wales’ Bovine TB Eradication Programme'. I call on the committee Chair to move the motion. Paul Davies.

Motion NDM8066 Paul Davies
To propose that the Senedd:
Notes the report of the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee: 'Refreshing Wales’ Bovine TB Eradication Programme' which was laid in the Table Office on 20 May 2022.

Motion moved.

Paul Davies AC: I move the motion tabled in my name. As the Welsh Government reviews its bovine TB strategy, the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee felt this presented a good opportunity to undertake a short, sharp inquiry into the programme. From the outset, I'd like to thank those who gave evidence to the committee and helped shape our report.
One of those giving evidence was Roger Lewis, a dairy farmer in Pembrokeshire, who explained that he had 47 cows in isolation as a result of a TB breakdown. Roger told us he was having to pour away £300-worth of milk, and feed the cows £100-worth of concentrate every day. However, the financial burden of a breakdown is only part of the pain for farmers, as Roger also told the committee about the emotional distress he felt seeing his cows penned up day in, day out. Llywydd dros dro, I wanted to open this debate by highlighting Roger's experience because I believe that it's important that Members hear the views of farmers like him, so that we can better understand the impact TB breakdowns have on farms across Wales.
Now, the committee's report focuses on five key areas the Government must address if they are to create a refreshed strategy that will eradicate TB and support farmers though the process. Those areas are engagement with farmers and the wider industry; informed purchasing; testing; compensation; and wildlife.
We heard that the countries that have been most successful with TB eradication programmes have very good engagement with farmers. Professor Glyn Hewinson told Members that the systems in Ireland and New Zealand, where there is evidence of good farmer engagement, has led to good results. So, on the basis of that good work, the committee has recommended that the Welsh Government follow a co-production route when developing its bovine TB policy, so that there is a genuine buy-in from the farming industry. I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted the committee's recommendations on engagement and the principle of co-production, and I know from the Minister's statement earlier this week that she is considering the farmer engagement task and finish group report's findings and recommendations, and the NFU Cymru TB focus group report.
The committee also looked at informed purchasing, and as Members will know, there is currently a voluntary approach to informed purchasing in Wales, where farmers are encouraged to make their herds' testing history available at the point of sale to allow assessment of TB risk level. The committee considered whether mandatory informed purchasing would be a way forward, although the evidence we received painted a very mixed picture. Some witnesses argued for mandatory informed purchasing, saying that this would help farmers do the right thing, but the committee also heard that it could create a two-tier system, where animals that are deemed as higher risk will have a lower value.
However, one thing was very clear: informed purchasing, whether voluntary or mandatory, must be based on robust data. We know that the Welsh Government is developing a new multispecies database, EID Cymru, and this presents an opportunity to improve the information provided as part of informed purchasing. Nevertheless, whilst stakeholders were supportive of the development of EID Cymru, they raised valid concerns about the compatibility between the different UK administrations. So, whilst I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted in principle the recommendations around informed purchasing, it did not address the issue of compatibility with other data systems in the UK, so I hope the Minister will address this issue in her response to this debate.
As part of the inquiry, the committee explored the idea of increasing TB testing, by reintroducing pre-movement testing in low-risk areas and also increasing the sensitivity of the tests that are used. Whilst there was broad support for increasing pre-movement testing, farming unions raised concerns that more sensitive tests would produce more false positives, which would in turn have a negative socioeconomic impact on the farming industry. The committee has recommended that a detailed socioeconomic impact assessment of any changes to the TB testing regime should be undertaken, and it's good to see that that recommendation has been accepted.
Llywydd dros dro, the committee heard how compensation for TB is a recurring area of overspend for the Welsh Government, which is simply unsustainable. One of the proposed solutions to this is a move away from the current individual cow-by-cow valuation to a tabular system for compensation, and members heard evidence in favour of the move from the RSPCA and against it from farming unions. The committee concluded that TB compensation must be used to reward good farming and that if a tabular compensation system is introduced, the Welsh Government must ensure that farmers rearing high-value cattle are not treated unfairly and do not lose out. Committee members understood that the current compensation programme is expensive. However, we also recognise that gaining farmer buy-in to any new system will be vital to its success.
Finally, whilst the committee tried to limit its work on wildlife in this inquiry, as that debate continues to be had, we did believe that there was a gap in data around bovine TB in wildlife. In the response to the report, the Welsh Government noted several studies and we as a committee will continue to monitor any scientific work done in this area.
So, Llywydd dros dro, this may be a short, sharp inquiry, but nonetheless its content and its report are vital, and so I look forward to hearing Members' views on this report and how we can help improve Wales's TB eradication policy ahead of the publication of the refreshed delivery plan later this year. Diolch yn fawr.

The Deputy Presiding Officer took the Chair.

Samuel Kurtz MS: I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute. Bovine TB has been a dark cloud over Wales's agricultural industry for too long, costing some farmers their businesses, their livelihoods and severely impacting on their mental health. Frankly, I don't care who gets the plaudits for eradicating TB from Welsh herds, because it is such a vicious disease, causing immense hardship, I just want to get this sorted once and for all. So does the industry.
This committee report is being debated in the same week as the Welsh Government provided their TB update, and I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has accepted all the recommendations fully or in principle. The recommendations put forward by the Economy, Trade, and Rural Affairs Committee offer the opportunity to grab this problem by the scruff, bringing farmers back into the fold around TB decision making on their farms. There is also so much that we can learn from other countries, such as Ireland, New Zealand and England, on how they controlled and eradicated bovine TB.
Focusing on a couple of specific points, whilst there is some welcome positivity that the annual number of animals slaughtered for TB control has decreased from 11,655 to 10,117, we must remember, however, that over 100,000 cattle have been slaughtered since 2008—a considerable and upsettingly large number.
Recommendation 10 notes the shortage of vets and the possibility of introducing lay vaccinators to vaccinate cattle and lay testers to test cattle. This is a pragmatic recommendation, freeing up vets whilst still enabling TB testing to be conducted, and I'm pleased that the Welsh Government has agreed to it. However, I would like further information on when the Welsh Government would think that this could be enacted.
Additionally, recommendations 11 and 12 call on the Welsh Government to
'use TB compensation payments to reward good farming practices'.
and states,
'If the Welsh Government chooses to introduce a tabular compensation system, they must ensure that farmers rearing high value (e.g. pedigree) cattle are not treated unfairly and do not lose out.'
Whilst the Government accepting these principles is somewhat welcome, I do feel that the response is somewhat of a holding reply, explaining that the payments regime is subject to consideration, with the additional comment that resulting costs will be drawn from existing programme budgets. So, it does concern me that with no new money being provided to tackle this disease, the Government has left itself open to the accusation that it is merely tinkering around the edges.
Farming is in desperate need of a friend, especially on TB. I sincerely hope that after the bruising last decade or so for farmers in the fight against TB, today, this report and the Welsh Government statement, signals a turning of the page and a re-energised TB eradication strategy. My thanks go to the committee Chair, the Member for Preseli Pembrokeshire; the clerking team; the witnesses who provided their evidence; and to fellow colleagues on the committee. Diolch.

Mabon ap Gwynfor AS: Well, it's impossible to overemphasise the importance of the farming industry to rural Wales. Farming businesses in Wales are the backbone of the rural economy, the axis that rural communities turn around. The core products produced here are central to the food and drink industry in Wales, which is worth millions of pounds and employs over 239,000 people here. But bovine TB continues to cast a dark shadow across the industry in Wales, and it's one of the main threats to the delivery of our vision of an agricultural industry that is profitable, productive and innovative. The anger and frustration in the industry regarding the failure of consecutive Governments time and time again to introduce a comprehensive strategy to eradicate TB in Wales is at its highest ever.
I want to echo the views of the farming unions on their opposition to a tabular valuation system as a means of providing compensation for TB. Such a proposal contains significant deficiencies. Because of a shortage of time, I want to focus on one weakness, namely that such a system isn't fair to farmers or to the Government, because a system based on averages is likely to create as many cases of overvaluation as undervaluation, and we can't accept tabular valuation without an assurance that farmers are to receive a fair compensation.
The veterinary sector is facing significant challenges at the moment as a result of Brexit, as many vets leave this country and go back to the countries of their birth. This in turn causes problems in terms of TB testing and the committee heard concerns that this is having a direct impact on farmersand TB testing. Members of the Farmers Union of Wales have been punished because of a lack of personnel and veterinary support. So, I encourage Government to ensure that additional resources are available before any increased testing requirements are introduced. One possible solution, as we’ve heard, in relation to this is the introduction of lay testers, and I would encourage the Welsh Government to look into this as soon as possible.
The current situation is being further intensified by the Welsh Government’s programme for government for 2021, which states that it would ban the culling of badgers to reduce the spread of TB in cattle. This is a mistake. There is no vaccination for TB in cattle or wildlife, so the only effective tool we have is culling, and it has to be part of the mix for the benefit of cattle and wildlife. There is evidence to support an effective TB eradication policy over the border in Gloucestershire and Somerset, where we saw a reduction of 66 per cent and 37 per cent in the number of cases in the period of the culls there. No other way has been proposed to tackle TB, and therefore we must use the only tool that we have at the moment, and that is culling.
In reading the committee’s report, it is staggering to understand that there isn’t adequate data on the level of TB in wildlife, either. Such information should be elementary in developing policy to tackle the disease. It’s no surprise that the steps that have been taken to date haven’t succeeded, because it’s only one side of the evidence that’s considered. This problem in terms of data lets our farmers and our wildlife down, and we must improve this data, therefore. This problem must be dealt with. Everyone is agreed that the current situation cannot continue, and the Welsh Government must ensure that farmers are given adequate support to eradicate this appalling disease from cattle and wildlife.

Joyce Watson AC: I want to thank the committee for what is an interesting report. I remember being elected in 2007, and there were serious concerns around bovine TB in Wales then, but the data shows how far we have come. There’s a new picture now, as the Minister put it in her most recent statement. New herd incidents are down 56 per cent since 2008, and we’ve got here by the Government and also the farming industry working together and following the science. Higher sensitivity testing particularly has been crucial. There’s a long way to go, of course, but this report is another helpful signpost on the road to eradication. And we all want to get there, of course, as fast as possible.
As RSPCA Cymru noted in their evidence,
'the disease is primarily spread between cattle',
with cattle movements the main risk in the transmission. So, the evidence on veterinary personnel and resources is especially important, and I look forward to an update on the lay testers pilot in due course.
As Dr Gareth Enticott from Cardiff University explained to the committee, the introduction of lay tests could particularly help to retain vets in the Mid and West Wales area. Staying in my region, the committee didn’t hear about the pilot project for Pembrokeshire, but the Minister mentioned it in her statement, and it would be good to have more details, please, perhaps after the first formal meeting at the Pembrokeshire show.
Likewise, the committee heard a bit about badger vaccination, but not cattle. In November, Wales’s chief veterinary officer said, and I quote,
'We continue to support the development of a deployable cattle TB vaccine with a test to differentiate infected from vaccinated animals to be in place by 2025.'
'Cattle vaccination has the potential to become a powerful tool in the battle against the disease and we will be engaging with the TB Centre of Excellence to plan its most appropriate deployment in Wales.'
So, again, I ask for an update on that. But I’m really pleased to have taken part in this debate, and I look forward to listening to others.

I call on the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, Lesley Griffiths.

Lesley Griffiths AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and I thank the Chair and committee members for reviewing the proposals contained in the consultationon a refreshed TB eradication programme. I have formally responded to the committee's report, which we are debating here today, and I was reassured to see that the recommendations are broadly in line with our proposals.
I set out my intention to refresh our TB eradication programme last November. Our current delivery plan, which dates back to 2017, set out enhanced measures, which have since been implemented as part of a regionalised approach. Our programme continues to be based on the four key principles of infectious disease control: keep it out, find it fast, stop it spreading and stamp it out. The latest TB statistics show progress has been made across Wales, with long-term decreases in a number of key indicators, such as incidence and prevalence. We're also seeing regional long-term reductions in TB in our high TB areas, and our refreshed delivery plan will build on this good work. The 246 responses to the consultation on a refreshed TB eradication programme, which closed in February, are helping to inform our strategy, going forwards. The summary of responses is available on our website.
In November, I commissioned an independent task and finish group to consider communication with cattle keepers regarding TB. Their recommendations have been published and are also being considered towards our future approach. I am pleased to see synergies between the task and finish group report, the NFU Cymru TB focus group report and the report presented by this committee. A recurring theme in these reports highlights the importance of the role of vets in the TB eradication programme, and in particular their relationships with farmers in communicating accurate and trusted information.
As a continuation of the work of the task and finish group and in response to their recommendations, I look forward to seeing the outputs of a workshop at the Royal Welsh Show next week to explore the role of the vet and the interface between Welsh Government, vets and farmers in tackling TB. The outputs will be considered alongside veterinary capacity and progressing a pilot with veterinary delivery partners and the Animal and Plant Health Agency to trial the use of lay TB testers in Wales.
Earlier this week, I published a written statement setting out immediate and longer term intentions for our programme. We have a great deal of work to do and I and my officials will continue to work with stakeholders to further develop and refine our approach. The initial focus will be on progressing a pilot aimed at driving down TB incidence in Pembrokeshire and setting up a technical advisory group. As a priority, the group will consider our TB testing regime and provide independent recommendations, ensuring the latest information continues to be at the heart of the programme.Later this year, I will publish a refreshed delivery plan, setting out the next steps for the programme. I will continue to work with stakeholders. I've always emphasised that the eradication of bovine TB will only be achieved by working in partnership.
I would like to thank once again all those who responded to our consultation and contributed to the various reports and recommendations, and I look forward to providing a further update in the Senedd in due course. Diolch.

I call on Paul Davies to reply to the debate.

Paul Davies AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. I'd like to thank Members and, indeed, the Minister for their contributions to this debate. We've heard just how devastating bovine TB is for Welsh farmers. I want to make it clear to the sector that the Economy, Trade and Rural Affairs Committee has heard you loud and clear, and we will continue to do what we can to scrutinise Ministers to bring forward improvements on this issue.
It is absolutely right, though, that Wales's TB eradication programme is robust and effective, and for that we have to see greater engagement with the sector over this policy area. The committee has made it clear that farmers must have a greater buy-in to Government policies and they must be treated as equal partners by Welsh Government when developing the TB eradication programme. Professor Glyn Hewinson is right to say that this needs to be a team Wales effort, and involving farmers, vets and Government together in decision making is really important.
Of course, it's also important that the data that the Welsh Government uses is accurate and up to date. The committee has called on the Welsh Government to work with farmers to gather better localised data on infections in wildlife, including gathering data on the levels of infection on farmland where a farm has gone into breakdown. Data and its importance formed an integral part of the committee report, whether that's in relation to wildlife figures or whether that's in relation to informed purchasing or changing the testing regime, and so I urge the Minister to prioritise this matter and review the data it holds as soon as possible.
Members have also raised compensation, and it's clear that the current compensation programme is expensive and that something will have to change. The Minister has said that the aim of any TB payments regime must be to pay a fair and appropriate amount for cattle slaughtered whilst also ensuring it's fair for the taxpayer. Whilst that is true, it also has to be fair to the farmer too, and so I know the committee will continue to keep a close watch on developments in this area.
The shortage of vets has also been raised this afternoon, and I'm pleased the Minister has accepted the recommendation and confirmed that you will now explore the greater use of lay TB testers. I understand that a pilot will be established over the summer to trial this approach, and look forward to hearing more about it in due course, as the Minister mentioned earlier.
So, in closing, the Minister has made it clear that she will publish a refreshed delivery plan later this year, setting out the next steps for the TB eradication programme, and the committee looks forward to scrutinising that plan in due course. So, can I thank Members and the Minister for their contributions today, and say that the committee looks forward to being updated on the progress of the implementation of the recommendations in our report in due course? Diolch yn fawr iawn.

The proposal is to note the committee's report. Does any Member object? No. Therefore, the motion is agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

10. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Hepatitis C

The following amendment has been selected: amendment 1 in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Item 10 this afternoon is the first Welsh Conservatives debate, on hepatitis C. I call on Russell George to move the motion.

Motion NDM8064 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Acknowledges that Wales has made good progress towards eliminating the hepatitis C virus (HCV) by establishing a highly effective national clinical network, as well as having equitable and transparent access to treatment right across the country.
2. Notes the ground-breaking successes in several areas, including achieving the elimination of HCV in the prison population of HMP Swansea (the first remand prison in the UK), as well as successfully transplanting and treating the organs from infected donors with HCV to new recipients - another UK first.
3. Recognises that whilst the Welsh Government is still committed to its strategic elimination goal, increased political prioritisation and resources are required to close the testing and treatment gap that has emerged due to the COVID-19 pandemic and to ensure the 2030 target date is not exceeded.
4. Calls on the Welsh Government to:
a) mandate the re-establishment of frontline blood borne virus and harm reduction services in all health board areas, so that the identification, testing, linkage to care and treatment of HCV patients in Wales can resume;
b) develop a national strategic plan to deliver HCV elimination by 2030 at the latest, which is sustainably resourced, patient centric and focuses on the whole pathway;
c) ensure that health boards are funded and accountable for delivering the national strategic plan, in terms of service delivery, data monitoring and reporting performance.

Motion moved.

Russell George AC: Diolch, Deputy Presiding Officer. I'm pleased to lead this first debate of two this afternoon. Our first debate this afternoon is on hepatitis C. I thought it would be useful just to set out some background, perhaps, for Members who might be less informed on this issue. The hepatitis C virus is a blood-borne virus affecting the liver, and if untreated, four fifths of those infected develop chronic hepatitis C, which can cause fatal cirrhosis, scarring of the liver, which can lead to liver failure, and also liver cancer. The virus is spread when the blood of an infected person gets into the bloodstream of another person.
The main way in which HCV is spread in the UK is through drug use by sharing of needles. Body piercing or tattooing using unsterilised needles can also spread the virus, and on rare occasions it can be spread through sexual contact, or from mother to baby before or during birth. Other people at higher risk of acquiring HCV include those who come into contact with blood, such as healthcare workers, prison officers and people who've received a blood transfusion before 1991 in the UK, or in countries that do not screen donated blood for the virus.
There is no vaccine for HCV. New medications are seen to have revolutionised the treatment so that it is now curable in nine out of 10 people, if treated early. The new tablet treatments are more effective and have far fewer side effects, and treatment takes about eight to 12 weeks. Even if treatment does not clear the virus, it can slow down inflammation or liver damage. The World Health Organization estimates that globally, 71 million people have chronic hepatitis C infection. The UK is a low-prevalence country, and Wales has around 12,000 to 14,000 people with HCV.
Much of what I have outlined in my opening there has been sourced from the former Health, Social Care and Sport Committee report published in June 2019. In their report, 'Hepatitis C: Progress towards achieving elimination in Wales', the committee set out a number of recommendations, which included recommendations that the Welsh Government produces a comprehensive national elimination strategy for hepatitis C, a targeted awareness campaign, and investment into Welsh prisons to improve testing. The Welsh Government did accept the majority of the recommendations—in fact, it accepted all of the recommendations either in principle or fully.
Unfortunately, Wales is an outlier amongst UK nations in its elimination targets. Wales is at risk of missing the World Health Organization's elimination target of 2030. So, what we in our motion today, Minister, seek to achieve is to build on the recommendations of the Health, Social Care and Sport Committee. We are calling on the Welsh Government tomandate the re-establishment of frontline blood-borne virus and harm reduction services in all health board areas, so that the identification, testing, linkage to care and treatment of HCV patients in Wales can resume. We are calling for a national strategic planto deliver HCV elimination by 2030 at the latest, which is also sustainably resourced and patient centric. Our third point in our motion calls to ensure that health boards are fully funded and accountable for delivering the national strategic plan.
Whilst the previous health committee called for the Government to write to health boards, we in our motion are asking the Government to go even further and make sure that our local health boards have the ability to meet the elimination target. Without action, Wales is on track to miss its commitment to eliminating hepatitis C by 2030, and with this is the increased risk of further health impacts and health inequalities in our communities. In order to reach the 2030 elimination target in Wales, at least 900 patients must be treated each year, and sadly only 300 were treated between 2020 and 2022. Of course, I accept the pandemic as the reason for this. However, even pre pandemic the treatment rates were around 600 to 700 patients per year, which would now not be good enough, I look forward to Members' contributions and the Minister's comments in our debate this afternoon.

I have selected the amendment to the motion. I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services to move formally amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths.

Amendment 1—Lesley Griffiths
Delete point 4 and replace with:
Notes:
a) the Welsh Government’s expectation that frontline blood borne viruses and harm reduction services, including for hepatitis C, will be re-established in all health board areas as soon as possible;
b) that the Welsh Government is working closely with the NHS in Wales to support their planning to ensure that Wales is able to meet the World Health Organisation target of eliminating hepatitis C by 2030;
c) that established systems are in place to ensure that health boards are supported and held accountable for meeting the target in terms of service delivery, data monitoring and reporting performance.

Amendment 1 moved.

Eluned Morgan AC: Formally.

Rhun ap Iorwerth AC: I'm pleased to see this motion before us here today. I'm going to be referring to a couple of points that have been made already. At least 8,000 people in Wales have a chronic HCV infection. Untreated, of course, it can cause very serious illness—cirrhosis of the liver, liver cancer, and other health problems. I know, having spoken to constituents, about the impact that it can have on people's everyday lives. In the words of one constituent, who had HCV through infected blood in the 1970s, 'I never have a good day, just bad days or some very bad days.'
By now, of course, it's possible to treat hepatitis C, get better and prevent it in the first place, and, vitally, we can eliminate hepatitis C entirely. But even though eliminating it is possible, and Wales in the past has taken great strides towards elimination by 2030, the truth is that we are backsliding and we are not on the right path at present to hit the target. Wales is the only country in the UK not to have a target of eliminating HCV before that 2030 target that has been set by the WHO. England and Northern Ireland have set an ambitious target for elimination by 2025, the SNP Government in Scotland set an even more ambitious target of 2020.
You'll hear the Government here in Wales saying that COVID has had a great impact, and of course I don't doubt that, but even before the pandemic, the health committee stated concerns that we were not on the right path to hit even the 2030 target. There is very good work being done. I am very grateful to those within the health system and charities for the great strides they have ensured are happening already, but we need further action, broader action by the Welsh Government.
First of all, the Government should allocate specific budgets—a specific budget for hepatitis C. That would give the certainty that's needed to health boards to be able to invest in accordance with the process of eradicating the illness by that date. Secondly, we need to ensure that savings—which we've seen recently in the cost of treatment, because of changes to procurement systems and centralised systems—are reinvested to detect hepatitis C patients who are undiagnosed. Third, with very high rates of HCV among drug users who inject, we need specific financial support in that area to offer more testing, for example. I'd like to hear the response of the Government and the Minister to those three points.
I have a couple of other comments, and two questions. Some of the strategies that will help us to eradicate HIV and the work that's been done in that area, which is something that's had attention recently, can be very useful as we try to hit the eradication target for hepatitis C. Is the Government ensuring that those two campaigns are working hand in hand to avoid any duplication?
And finally, shifting focus a little bit, as the chair of the CPG on infected blood, this week the inquiry into infected blood heard evidence from Sir Robert Francis about the compensation scheme for victims and families of victims. I'd like to hear about any discussions that the Governments has had with the UK Government on that.

Mark Isherwood AC: To reiterate, our motion calls on the Welsh Government to develop a national strategic plan to deliver HCV elimination by 2030 at the latest, which is sustainably resourced, patient centric, and focuses on the whole pathway. At least 8,000 people in Wales are estimated to be chronically infected with hepatitis C, about half of whom are unaware they have the virus. Hepatitis C is a preventable and treatable blood-borne virus primarily affecting the liver. It can be fatal without treatment. During a debate here on hepatitis C five years ago, which called on the Welsh Government to confirm their commitment to the World Health Organization eradication date of 2030, I stated that the elimination of hepatitis C as a serious public health concern in Wales is a wholly achievable goal. Noting that in the 1970s and 1980s, a large proportion of blood products supplied to patients by the NHS was contaminated with HIV or hepatitis C, I concluded that to achieve the elimination of hepatitis C, we must find the 50 per cent of people currently undiagnosed, by widening access to testing and further investigating which groups could be cost-effectively screened, and that with effective and accessible new treatments now available to all who need them, it is easier than ever to treat and cure patients, presenting a great opportunity to achieve the elimination of hepatitis C in Wales. That was five years ago. Five years later, action is needed to get the hepatitis C elimination journey in Wales back on track and stop Wales being left behind.
Questioning the health Minister here in February, I noted that in England and Northern Ireland, the target to eliminate hepatitis C is 2025, and in Scotland 2024, and asked the Minister to confirm that the Welsh Government will review its target date to eliminate hepatitis in Wales by 2030 at the latest, and in so doing, how she will address calls for best practice developed in Wales and other UK nations to be harnessed. Although the Minister agreed to look at whether there was any possibility of moving the target date in Wales, she subsequently wrote to me, stating:
'While I do not rule out bringing forward the elimination target in the future, realistically, our current target of elimination by 2030 is already very stretching...I will continue to update the Senedd on our progress.'
And then that 'health boards are working on recovery plans, and my officials are in the process of reviewing opposition in order to prioritise next steps.' Yet, despite the impact of the pandemic on the health services and populations of the other UK nations, they have not altered their elimination target dates and have put in place national strategic plans and programmes and additional resources. Why should Wales have to lag behind yet again?

I call on the Minister for Health and Social Services, Eluned Morgan.

Eluned Morgan AC: Diolch yn fawr, Dirprwy Llywydd. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to provide an update on what we’re doing in Wales to help reach the World Health Organization's target to eliminate hepatitis C as a significant public health threat by 2030. The World Health Organization target is a 90 per cent reduction in incidence, and a 65 per cent reduction in mortality due to hepatitis C by 2030. We in Wales are pleased to have signed up to this target; obviously, if we can go faster, we will. You might have noticed that there’s quite a lot going on in the NHS at a moment, but we are not weakening the target that we’ve already set out. Thanks to medical advances, new directly acting antiviral medications have revolutionised the treatment of hepatitis C, so that the disease is now, to all intents and purposes, curable in the early stages. Treatments are well tolerated and of relatively short duration. This paradigm shift in treatment provides an opportunity to significantly reduce the incidence and prevalence of hepatitis C in all communities in Wales.
Of course, during the COVID-19 pandemic, difficult decisions have had to be taken to prioritise our health protection expertise and resources. As a result, work on important areas, including hepatitis C testing, were paused temporarily. But we remain committed to working towards the World Health Organization target and to improving lives in Wales. Our focus for the elimination of hepatitis C is on ensuring that health boards have robust, cohesive plans in place to be able to find and treat people with hepatitis C through existing harm-reduction services. And to do this, we will need to focus on individuals who may be unaware that they have the disease, as has been pointed out, or, until now, have been unwilling to engage with traditional health services. We've previously worked with health boards to set out the route-map to elimination of hepatitis C, and we have nationally funded posts to support this.

Eluned Morgan AC: Despite the challenges of recent years, we have several stories of success here in Wales, and these will work as catalysts to achieve our target. We've already mentioned about the opt-out tests for blood-borne viruses that were introduced in Swansea prison in 2016. By doing this, we succeeded in having micro-elimination in the prison—the first in the UK to do that. And this was featured in the report that you wrote as a committee. By now, there is a strategy in place in Berwyn prison as well, and Public Health Wales has ensured funding to be introduced in Cardiff prison. The aim is to eliminate the virus in all of the prisons in Wales in the longer term.
On top of that, there is a Follow Me support programme and it's aimed at raising awareness. And under that plan, staff from the voluntary sector, from the Hepatitis C Trust, will be working within the clinical pathway, with people who they see as challenging, to try and seek help from health services, and will be encouraging them to have IgG tests. The project is being trialled at present in Cardiff and Vale University Health Board, with awareness-raising work in homeless shelters happening in Cardiff, and further training for staff to be introduced in terms of service users.
We're fortunate that the hepatitis C clinical network is very effective and dedicated here in Wales. This leads to the saving of more than £40 million in drug treatments since anti-viral agents, which operate directly, were introduced in 2014. It's a flexible way of funding drugs and providing them to patients, and improves the patient experience, improves outcomes and helps to save costs as well. Even though we're all aware of the great work that's been done already, and that we still have to do, to meet the target of eradicating the virus by 2030, we're continuing to work with the health service here in Wales to deliver our aim jointly, and our aim is to give you a further update in the autumn. Thank you.

I call on Russell George to reply to the debate.

Russell George AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank Rhun ap Iorwerth and Mark Isherwood for their contributions? I can't disagree with anything that they added to the debate this afternoon. I thank the Minister for her update—much I can, of course, welcome and support. There are, of course, some elements that I was disappointed about—I'll focus on those areas. We did ask in our motion for the re-establishment of front-line blood-borne virus and harm reduction services. The Minister was not prepared to accept that in our motion, simply saying that the services will resume as soon as possible, but it's disappointing that we couldn't at least have a date when services could have resumed.
The other part to our debate this afternoon was, of course, asking for a strategic plan to deliver on HCV. And the Government really is an outlier on this. There are so many Governments around the world that have those plans in place, and we also are aware that Public Health Wales has also previously called for a plan as well. So, it's not just in our motion today, it's Members across this Chamber, and, in fact, two Ministers actually signed up to the previous committee's report. The Deputy Minister, Lynne Neagle, was on the committee that signed up to that report at the time, and it was her recommendation that called for a plan to tackle and deliver HCV elimination. So, I hope that the Deputy Minister could perhaps persuade you in that regard as well. Dawn Bowden was also on the committee, actually, that made that recommendation. So, I hope that Government colleagues can perhaps persuade you of the need for the plan. And the Deputy Presiding Officer was actually on the committee that made that same recommendation as well. I think I've gone through everyone now—and my colleague Darren Millar was on there as well. And that's everyone who is currently here.
But, thank you, Minister, for your update, but we would've preferred that you had gone, of course, further in that plan. I think the current situation isn't good enough. There have been valid solutions that have been put forward. I appreciate what's happened during the pandemic, but as I pointed out, even pre pandemic, we weren't treating enough people even at that point to meet the World Health Organization targets, which you currently say that you're still going to meet. So, I do think, also, that putting responsibility on health boards is simply not good enough. I think we need a strategy that is not designed to fail, one that creates an in-depth strategic plan. We need to fund our health boards correctly and show ambition in the fight to eliminate this virus. I move our motion this afternoon, Deputy Presiding Officer.

The proposal is to agree the motion without amendment. Does any Member object? [Objection.] Yes, there are objections and I will therefore defer voting under this item until voting time.

Voting deferred until voting time.

11. Welsh Conservatives Debate: Summer shows and events

We now move to item 11, the second Welsh Conservative debate on summer shows and events. I call on Samuel Kurtz to move the motion.

Motion NDM8065 Darren Millar
To propose that the Senedd:
1. Welcomes the return of the National Eisteddfod, the Royal Welsh Agricultural Show, along with summer shows and events across Wales.
2. Recognises the benefits of the summer event season in promoting the Welsh language, culture, produce, and way of life.
3. Thanks all those involved in ensuring the events are a success.

Motion moved.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd. On this, the final Plenary day of term before the summer recess, I am delighted to open this debate on behalf of the Welsh Conservatives on a subject very close to my heart. Our debate today pays tribute to the hard work that goes into the organising, running and operating of our agricultural shows, our major cultural events, such as the National Eisteddfod, and other large-scale outdoor events, such as the Ironman competition that takes place around Tenby in my constituency later this year.
Our motion welcomes these events back after the pause button was pressed and acknowledges the efforts of keeping these businesses running during COVID restrictions. It also recognises the immense economic and cultural benefits that hosting these events, often in rural areas, brings to Wales. Dirprwy Lywydd, this is the point when I must declare an interest as chair of Pembrokeshire Young Farmers Club and as a director of Wales YFC. And while many people my age will be heading abroad this summer, there is only one place I want to be spending my first week of recess and that's at the Royal Welsh Show in Builth Wells—the same place that I have spent the third week of July for much of the last 25 years. The Royal Welsh is my Glastonbury. The annual pilgrimage to mid Wales brings £40 million into the Welsh economy, and the last show held in 2019 saw over 250,000—0.25 million—visitors during the show week. So, I am not alone in getting excited for this show. It provides an excellent shop window for our fantastic agricultural industry and its produce. And after the difficulties of the last two years, the show offers an opportunity for like-minded people to meet up, socialise, exchange ideas and relax. This doesn't just happen at the Royal Welsh, though, it happens at every agricultural show held the length and breadth of Wales, from the one-day Pembroke town and country show in my constituency to the multiple-day shows such as the Royal Welsh. Their return this summer, in all their glory, is important for the mental and physical health of our people, as it is for the economy that they support. And these benefits aren't just seen at agricultural shows.

Samuel Kurtz MS: Our eisteddfodau are crucial in strengthening and safeguarding our language and culture. As a young boy, the summer weeks were full of travelling across west Wales taking part in local eisteddfodau, reciting poems on the stage, and on occasion, I'd win a cup or two. When the 2020 Eisteddfod was postponed because of the COVID-19 pandemic, this was the first time that the Eisteddfod hadn't beenheld since 1914, when the event had to be cancelled in response to the start of the first world war. But now we welcome the National Eisteddfod back in Tregaron at the end of July, after the success of the Urdd Eisteddfod in Denbigh back in May.

Samuel Kurtz MS: These events are the silver thread running through the story and narrative of our history and culture. Their importance and contribution cannot be overestimated. Therefore, Members, as the sun beats down on us and we go and plan our summer recess visits, I not only urge you to back our motion before you today, but I also urge you all to visit our agricultural shows, our eisteddfodau and all the events that make their very welcome return this summer. Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd.

Heledd Fychan AS: I'm pleased to echo many of the points raised by Samuel Kurtz. Certainly, the summer events are an important part of our calendar as a nation, from the small agricultural shows to the Royal Welsh and all the musical and cultural festivals such as the International Eisteddfod that's just been held in Llangollen and the National Eisteddfod. I think we've all missed them hugely over the past few years, and their loss has been felt. Of course, some things went virtually, such as Eisteddfod AmGen, which gave a flavour of the eisteddfod, but there's nothing like being on the eisteddfod field, complaining about the weather, whatever that may be, whether it's too hot or too wet, seeing old friends and making new friends. There are things that we've all missed. Personally, the Anglesey Show is the one that I've always visited since being a child, with my lifelong friend Ann, going on on the waltzers. We used to do that, and we still do—we're not too old for that. So, I look forward to doing that again. I think I'm sharing too much today, perhaps. [Laughter.]
But it has been a long three years, and I think one of the things that was missing from the motion—and I'm glad to see Sam emphasise this—is the economic benefits that these shows provide. The economic impact and the fact that the National Eisteddfod does travel the length and breadth of Wales—something that's been contentious over the years—demonstrates the local legacy economically but also in terms of the language. I'm sure many of us will remember the National Eisteddfod in Abergavenny, where so many Welsh learners were involved—I know that Peter Fox was a major part in that—and there was a legacy in Abergavenny, and it's so important that the Eisteddfod does travel and that it truly is a national eisteddfod for everyone in Wales. And I'll be delighted to see the Eisteddfod returning to Tregaron.
One of the things we forget too often, particularly with the National Eisteddfod, is the fact that it is seen as a Welsh language festival, but it is an international festival too, and I often think that we don't take enough advantage of that. Because when we do see people from abroad coming to the National Eisteddfod, they fall in love with it; they're delighted. I remember when Eluned Morgan was Minister with responsibility for international affairs and the Welsh language, and, when she was at the Eisteddfod, saw many international visitors at the Eisteddfod who were delighted they could enjoy because of the interpretation equipment available. And I do think that we're missing out on opportunities to promote the National Eisteddfod as an international event that everyone can enjoy, and that it still excludes many people in Wales. In the past, I've welcomed when the Welsh Government has funded free entry days to the National Eisteddfod. I think, with the cost-of-living crisis, one of the things that worries me is the cost of entry to some of these important events, and I would like to see us looking in future as to how we make events such as the Royal Welsh and the National Eisteddfod affordable to all, particularly those communities who will be immersed in these events but perhaps can't attend because of the cost.
So, clearly, I want to echo the thanks to everyone who works so hard to ensure that these events take place, but I think there is work to be done in looking at making them affordable so that more people can enjoy them, and in looking at their international promotion.

Laura Anne Jones AC: I have to concur with everything that my colleague Sam Kurtz said earlier, and I too am looking forward to going to the Royal Welsh Show next week. And all this talk of shows is making me yearn for my annual pork, crackling and apple sauce roll that I have, without doubt, at every single show that I go to. And whether it be showcasing or offering the outstanding local produce that we have in my home county of Monmouthshire, across my region of South Wales East, or Wales, or showcasing our livestock, entering competitions for best home-made jams or cake, or looking at pupils from local schools' handwriting competitions, visiting the many stalls, themed tents, horticulture, or, as I now spend most of my time doing, looking at tractors, tractors and more tractors, there is something for everyone at our shows, in the wonderful variety of shows that we have across my region and Wales throughout the summer. We're so lucky to have them. As well as attracting many visitors to Wales—we can't forget the enormous economic benefit that's been outlined already that they bring to our patches—these shows also bring local communities together, meeting or seeing friends and family you haven't seen for ages or since the previous show the year before.
What strikes me is the enormous amount of work that goes into running a show. My father has always been a vice-president or steward of my local Usk show, so I've always had some awareness. When my friend Nia Thomas took over the role of organising our local show, I was amazed at the amount of work that was put in all year round to put on these shows. So, I'd like to take the opportunity to thank her, the Usk show team and to give a shout-out to all the behind-the-scenes volunteers that make our shows possible.
Our shows are also good educators, as local schools are almost always heavily involved, for agriculture shows give a real insight into the rural way of life to those that maybe come to shows for the first time from urban areas. It's particularly important for our children to get first-hand experience of seeing animals close up, to understand the food chain, how things work and how things get to their plates. Farmers are true custodians of our rural way of life and our environment, and our shows are really a chance to support them. I urge everyone to do that this year.
Our summer and agricultural shows truly embody what is the best that Wales has to offer, and, as Heledd said, we need to promote that further on a world stage. Sadly, though, not all our shows will be back this year, with the 150-year-old Monmouthshire show being cancelled due to financial restraints caused by the pandemic. To me, this just sums up how fragile and vulnerable our shows actually are, and how much they need our support, encouragement, promotion and financial backing where possible in the coming summers. So, I'm grateful to our group for tabling this debate today, and I join Sam Kurtz in encouraging the people of Wales to support their local shows.

Jane Dodds AS: It gives me great pleasure to join in this debate.

Jane Dodds AS: Thank you very much to Sam for moving this motion.

Jane Dodds AS: The well-being of future generations Act highlights the importance of cohesive communities and a thriving Welsh culture and language, and our shows have such an important contribution to achieving those aims. Whether that be, as has been mentioned, the Royal Welsh Show, held in Llanelwedd, which is a huge economic draw for that part of Brecon and Radnorshire, or the Trefeglwys eisteddfod in Montgomeryshire, which this year enters its hundred-and-fifth year, these shows play a critical role in bringing our communities together.
If I may, Dirprwy Lywydd, I'm going to pitch in for some of the ones that I really love in my region: the Neyland carnival, it was its hundredth one last week; the Llanfair Caereinion show, one of the best agricultural shows; the Llanfechain show, a really small show, have the best fish-out-a-duck competition; the Sesiwn Fawr in Dolgellau, a music festival. Here's one that I think we should all go to: the Llanelli dog show. Gŵyl Fwyd Pwllheli, the Big Summer Camp Out in Llanbedr, and, finally, Llanwrtyd Wells, a place in Brecon and Radnorshire, which has two amazing international festivals, firstly, the Man v Horse event, which this year the man actually won—the first time in 15 years—and, of course, Llanwrtyd Wells—[Interruption.] Yes, of course I would—was it you, Jack, who won that competition?

Jack Sargeant AC: It certainly wasn't me on this occasion, but maybe next year. I wonder if you would include in your list the Flint and Denbigh show, where I and Darren Millar will be at the big cat stand this summer? [Laughter.]

Jane Dodds AS: Marvellous. So, the Llanelli dog show will perhaps visit the big cat stand up in the Flintshire show. I just really wanted, finally, to mention one other place and one other thing happening, in Llanwrtyd Wells: the bog snorkelling championships. That is back this year. Now, for those of you who want to take part, believe me, you will need a very large bath afterwards in order to ensure that you are well and truly cleansed, but it is really an event that we all have to go to.

Jane Dodds AS: To finish, if that's okay, in terms of language and culture in particular, I'm sure that we can all agree that it's great that the Urdd Eisteddfod and the National Eisteddfod have and will be held this year. I'm looking forward to visiting the National Eisteddfod, and I'm extremely pleased that thousands of children and young people will have the chance to experience the event—the first time for the Eisteddfod to visit Ceredigion in 30 years.
I thank the Conservatives and Sam for bringing forward this debate. It's a great debate to have at the end of term and as we look forward to the summer. Thank you very much.

James Evans MS: I am so happy to take part in this debate today. Summer shows are a part of the fabric of life in Brecon and Radnorshire. It's just what we do, is summer shows, and as somebody who was born and raised in my constituency, I spent a lot of my youth running around summer shows, in and out the beer tent when I was 18 and also going around taking part in the sports and everything else. It is just part of our community, and it brings communities together across my constituency. The young come together, the old come together, to show their livestock, their pets, the shearing, your Welsh cakes, the cider, and also, in certain shows, the longest thistle competition. I would advise anybody to take part in that.
The summer shows, before long, will be in full swing in Brecon and Radnorshire, and it's a great opportunity to meet your friends and meet constituents. As a number of people across this Chamber—

Russell George AC: Will you take an intervention?

James Evans MS: I will take an intervention from my friend.

Russell George AC: Will the Member for Brecon and Radnorshire accept that Brecon and Radnor don't hold the monopoly on shows, of course, and that, in Montgomeryshire, there are also great shows that are taking place as well? There's the large Llanfyllin show, there's the Montgomery show with its fantastic town crier, Sue Blower, and Trefeglwys show and the Llanfair Caereinion show, which meets at the last of the season in September.

Can the Member not repeat every show in Montgomeryshire this afternoon?

Russell George AC: And, last of all, the Dolfor show, in which I will be taking part in a food competition this year. When I attend the shows, I won't be just in the beer tents; I will be out meeting my constituents.

James Evans MS: And, of course, it's very important to support your local breweries, Russ, which will be in the beer tents, but it is a great opportunity going around summer shows to meet your constituents, as you said. And, as many people and a few in this Chamber know who have stood in the great seat of Brecon and Radnorshire, if you don't go around the summer shows, you're just simply not going to get elected, as Andrew R.T. Davies reminded me when I first came here.
Russell named a lot of shows in Montgomeryshire, but he doesn't claim to have one of the oldest shows in the United Kingdom. The Brecon agricultural society is the oldest in the UK, and that goes back 267 years, and that is some sort of achievement. But the highlight of the summer show season is the Royal Welsh Show. It is the jewel in the crown of all summer shows. It brings, as Sam Kurtz said, over 200,000 people to Builth Wells, descending on my constituency, and, as Sam has said, it was my summer holiday for many, many years and will be my summer holiday this year.
Shows are a part of the rural way of life, and long may they continue. And, as Sam Kurtz said earlier, we all are going into recess now, so if any of you want to come and see a very good summer show, I would suggest you come to Brecon and Radnorshire for a very warm welcome, and I want to say 'good luck' to everybody across Wales, and especially my constituency, on having fantastic summer shows.

I call on the Deputy Minister for arts and sport, Dawn Bowden.

Dawn Bowden AC: Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer. Can I thank the Welsh Conservatives and Samuel Kurtz for tabling this debate today? It was a very good, feel-good end-of-term debate, and it was lovely to hear it. And it's very timely, given that we've actually launched our new national events strategy just today.
As many have already pointed out, not only are events something that we all want to enjoy, they are a vital part of the visitor economy. As set out in the programme for government, the Welsh Government is determined to do all that we can to help our tourism, sports and arts industry recover from the experience of the pandemic, because the impact of the pandemic can't be underestimated. The events sector was one of the first to close and the last to open. During this time, we worked closely with the sector, establishing an events advisory group and working in partnership with event organisers to deliver pilot events when it was safe to do so, and that strong theme of working in partnership continues throughout the new strategy. We know that the cost-of-living crisis, Brexit and the staff/volunteer shortages are also continuing to impact, but our focus remains on supporting the Welsh events industry to survive, while also looking to the future by developing Welsh events and suppliers and attracting international events in order to further enhance Wales's reputation as a leading events destination. The importance of events to the economy of Wales and the well-being of the nation was recognised by the support that we provided of almost £24 million to over 200 individual businesses in the events sector through three rounds of the cultural recovery fund.

Dawn Bowden AC: So, the return of the Royal Welsh Show is, of course, very welcome, and I'm pleased that the Minister for Rural Affairs and North Wales, and Trefnydd has recently approved funding to the value of £110,000 to the Royal Welsh Agricultural Society for the 2022-23 financial year. The Royal Welsh has played a leading role in the development of agriculture and the rural economy in Wales for well over a century. Its work includes providing support to business, social welfare and education in rural communities as well as delivering its charitable objectives. The Royal Welsh estimates it contributes in excess of £40 million per annum to the economy of Wales. The three main events in 2019—the Royal Welsh Show, the Smallholding and Countryside Festival and the winter fair—attracted around 300,000 attendees, including over 1,000 overseas visitors from 22 countries worldwide. The Royal Welsh Show is the largest event of its kind in the UK and beyond, and it is seen as the pinnacle of showcasing Welsh agriculture, and it also promotes the culture of Wales and the Welsh language.
And when the Eisteddfod Genedlaethol opens its gates in Tregaron at the end of the month it will offer 15,000 free tickets to local families who don't usually attend the Eisteddfod. It will do this by working closely with partners, such as the county council and charities like the Red Cross and sponsors such as the housing association Barcud. This is being made possible with an additional £100,000 in Welsh Government funding through the Summer of Fun grant. In particular, families will be encouraged to visit the Pentref Plant, where all activities will be welcoming and inclusive, encouraging people to use the Welsh that they have and showing that Welsh is a language of play, fun and socialising, as well as a language of school and education. Whilst being a key partner in delivering the aims of our Welsh-language strategy, 'Cymraeg 2050: A million Welsh speakers', the Eisteddfod Genedlaethol also brings a substantial economic benefit to the areas that it visits each year. Again, to support the Eisteddfod Genedlaethol through the pandemic, the Welsh Government allocated an additional £800,000 in 2021 to the Eisteddfod, and their annual core grant funding has been increased by £300,000 in 2022 to support the future of the festival in what remains an uncertain time. So, as Heledd Fychan mentioned, we enjoyed the Eisteddfod Amgen on various digital platforms over the past two years. It will be lovely for people to be back on the maes this year to socialise, listen to live performances and to enjoy our unique culture at its best.
It was also wonderful to welcome Eisteddfod yr Urdd in Denbigh in May this year, and for people to be able to celebrate the festival's 100th year in person. In recognition of this momentous occasion, the Welsh Government allocated additional funding of £527,000 to support free entry, allowing everyone to enjoy the biggest youth festival in Europe. Early reports from the Urdd suggest that this has been an amazing success, with many families visiting the festival for the first time. And I certainly hope that this is something that we can see more of as we seek to widen access to such experiences. And I'm very pleased that, in addition to their annual core grant funding of £852,184, the Urdd will receive an extra £1.2 million this year, which will provide support to enable the Urdd to rebuild its services following COVID-19. The additional funding will employ a network of development officers to support children and young people in communities throughout Wales, as well as providing an apprenticeship programme through the medium of Welsh for young people in our most underprivileged communities.
The Welsh Government also supports many other local festivals delivered through mentrau iaith, which also play a vital role in allowing people to come together and use the Welsh language in their local communities.
And just last week I was delighted to see the return of the Llangollen International Musical Eisteddfod for its 75th anniversary, which I was fortunate enough to be able to attend. Events like this, the National Eisteddfod and the Royal Welsh Show are the highlight of the summer season for many people across Wales and beyond. They enrich our lives and they bring a sense of place and pride.
Since the previous events strategy was launched in 2010, we’ve made strong progress working across the sector and across Wales to develop an impressive portfolio of cultural and sporting events, and more recently we’ve entered the business events market for the first time. We’ve worked with local and international owners, utilised our top class venues and natural landscapes, and worked with local authorities, communities and event agencies across Wales to develop and grow sustainable events that deliver economic benefits, showcase our nation, raise our profile, and help us to deliver Welsh Government priorities.

Deputy Minister, you need to conclude now.

Dawn Bowden AC: Okay. I was just going to say that the new strategy will build on these successes and the seven goals of the well-being of future generations Act. The strategy identifies clear ambitions to ensure an all-Wales approach to supporting events that are authentically Welsh, and it has been developed in consultation with the sector, and we will now work with stakeholders to develop an implementation plan in order to deliver our vision that Wales stages outstanding events that support the well-being of its people, place and the planet. Diolch yn fawr.

I call on Janet Finch-Saunders to reply to the debate.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: Diolch, Dirprwy Lywydd, and thank you, Deputy Minister, for your response. I’ll get to what I’m going to say in a minute, but I think your words were very appropriate when you said what a fantastic and upbeat debate this is to have just before we all go away on our summer recess.
So, yes, summer’s here, and so are some of the fantastic and biggest outdoor events in Wales. From the Royal Welsh Show to the National Eisteddfod, Wales is a hotspot for summertime events and festivals, which bring together our friends and our families and indeed us as a Welsh community, and how refreshing to hear my colleague, the enthusiasm and passion of Sam Kurtzin his opening of today’s motion.
Now, as our nation does move forward from the pandemic, we do need to focus on getting visitors back and giving them the confidence that Wales is now open again for business, and, of course, that the Welsh Government is committed to supporting the needs of local communities during the peak visitor period, and it’s really heartening to hear some of the funding for the Eisteddfod and things like that, which you’ve mentioned today. Now, on 25 June, I attended the Llanrwst show—as did, actually, my colleague Llyr Gruffydd over there. I think we shared a paned in the FUW tent. But he's—[Interruption.] [Laughter.] Established some 140 years ago, the rural agricultural show promotes locally produced food and crafts, exhibits prize livestock—we even see pig racing—fantastic horticultural displays, and one that certainly marks an important day in the agricultural calendar of Aberconwy, attracting competitors and visitors from all over north Wales. It is events such as this that inject a vibrant atmosphere into our local communities.
Again, on 13 August, I will be in the Tal-y-Cafn showground for our annual Eglwysbach show.

Llyr Gruffydd AC: I’ll see you there.

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: We’ll see you there. [Laughter.] Now, like big events such as the Royal Welsh, funding options are equally as important to smaller rural organised events. Now, this is why in March last year, because of the pandemic and because of the problems that smaller shows faced, stopping and having to start again after the pandemic, I did call for the establishment of a rural shows development fund, which would have grants made available to all shows to help with their marketing, safety measures and even greater diversification. I was quite fascinated, James, to hear about your longest thistle competition, so I'm going to look out for that when I come and visit you. We need to see an inclusion of a set of operational guidance for agricultural shows, so that they can come back with confidence. We need to see Visit Wales publish an agricultural show trail for Wales, so we know exactly where all these shows are going on, because, even though we all attend our own, I for one like to attend events in all of your constituencies.
So, to be fair to the Minister, she did respond advising that she would introduce a new innovation fund as well as a new accredited training package for individuals working or volunteering with show societies, and you've done that. You also said you would develop guidance for the return of outdoors in Wales and work with Visit Wales. So, I was going to ask you for an update, but, as I'm finishing, I can't. But, to me, you are actually on the case, and that's what we need to do. We need to actually be drawing in bigger audiences from across the UK and further afield.
The Welsh language and culture is very beautiful, very alive and most importantly spoken at our cultural, agricultural shows. But, Heledd Fychan, you were very correct in talking about the fragility, but you were equally enthusiastic, reminding me very much of the fun to be had on a waltzer. And Laura Jones, I'm very much looking forward to sharing a roast pork and apple sauce—

Laura Anne Jones AC: I'm not sharing. [Laughter.]

Janet Finch-Saunders AC: No, not literally sharing. [Laughter.] But we do also have to—. And we've talked about the Eisteddfod. But we do also have to be familiar with all the other eisteddfodau across Wales. We should be encouraging local media, and especially S4C, to be present at county and community eisteddfodau so that people across Wales and further afield can watch Welsh talent from the comfort of their own sofa.
The weather in Wales is already showing to be a perfect setting for events. I look forward to seeing more visitors exploring the plethora of activities that leave people with fond memories of our very green land. And I can't forget Jane Dodds. You were spot on too in recognising the value of our smaller community carnivals, our dog shows and all events that bring together our local communities. So, on that, I'm just going to give a shout-out to the Dolwyddelan Carnival, the Rowen Carnival and any other carnival and small dog shows and things in your own constituencies. I hope that you will all have a really happy and busy recess, doing whatever you want to do, but I also look forward to seeing you on the maes next week. Thank you.

The proposal is to agree the motion. Does any Member object? No. The motion is therefore agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

Motion agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

That brings us to voting time, and so we'll take a short break in order to prepare for the vote technologically.

Plenary was suspended at 18:27.

The Senedd reconvened at 18:31, with the Deputy Presiding Officer in the Chair.

12. Voting Time

The first vote this afternoon is on item 5, and that's the motion to amend Standing Order 34 and remote participation in Senedd proceedings. I call for a vote on the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions, 14 against. Therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 5. Motion to amend Standing Orders - Standing Order 34 and remote participation in Senedd proceedings: For: 38, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

We now move to a vote on the motion to amend Standing Orders—proxy voting. That's under item 6. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions, 14 against. And, therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 6. Motion to amend Standing Orders - Proxy Voting: For: 38, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

We now move to a vote on item 7, basic income and the transition to a zero-carbon economy. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 38, no abstentions, 14 against. And therefore, the motion is agreed.

Item 7. Member Debate under Standing Order 11.21(iv) - Basic Income and the transition to a zero carbon economy: For: 38, Against: 14, Abstain: 0
Motion has been agreedClick to see vote results

The next vote is on item 10, the Welsh Conservatives debate on hepatitis C. I call for a vote on the motion tabled in the name of Darren Millar. If the motion is not agreed, we will vote on the amendment tabled to the motion. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions, and 26 against.

And I will use my casting vote against the motion.

Therefore, the final result, in favour 26, no abstentions, 27 against. The motion is, therefore, not agreed.

Item 10. Welsh Conservatives Debate - Hepatitis C. Motion without amendment: For: 26, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Deputy Presiding Officer used his casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Motion has been rejectedClick to see vote results

I now call for a vote on amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths. Open the vote. Close the vote. In favour 26, no abstentions and 26 against. As is required under Standing Order 6.20, I exercisemy casting vote against the amendment.

Item 10. Welsh Conservatives debate. Amendment 1, tabled in the name of Lesley Griffiths: For: 26, Against: 26, Abstain: 0
As there was an equality of votes, the Deputy Presiding Officer used his casting vote in accordance with Standing Order 6.20(ii).
Amendment has been rejectedClick to see vote results

Seeing as the motion was not approved and the amendment was not approved, there's nothing approved. That brings us to the end of voting for today. Can the Members leaving the Chamber please do so quietly?

13. Short Debate: Votes at 16: Giving young people the tools to understand the world in which they live, and how to change it, through political education

We move now to the short debate, and I call on Sioned Williams to speak to the topic that she has chosen.

Sioned Williams MS: Thank you, Dirprwy Lywydd, and I'll give a minute of my time to Heledd Fychan. I grew up in Gwent, and I would go shopping in Newport. The famous mural that told the story of the Chartists, which now, unfortunately, has been destroyed, was a wonder to me. I learnt of their battle and their sacrifice through the graphic and dramatic images of that mural. I would insist on being told the story by my parents every time I passed, and I was encouraged to learn more about the history of my area and my nation, and about the battle of the ordinary people of Wales for a voice in the way in which their lives and society were governed.
Yes, children and young people can be inspired, and we can fire their enthusiasm for ideas and campaigns, such as those of the Chartists, and that can be done in many ways: seeing public art or a theatrical performance; reading books about young campaigners, such as Greta Thunberg or Malala; seeing protests by young campaigners for Cymdeithas yr Iaith and Black Lives Matter. But it is in school, of course, that we can best ensure that our young people are introduced to politics in all its forms, and the way in which these ideas influence society and generate change. Including Welsh history in all its diversity, and political education, as mandatory elements in the humanities area of learning and experience in the new curriculum will certainly be a means of encouraging this. And there have been many calls in recent years, particularly as we decided to give the vote to those at 16 years of age, for a better framework, and more consistent and complete provision, to ensure meaningful and standardised political education for all.
It's crucial that we enable our young people to understand the way in which policy ideas, ideology and systems of government create the society and the world that they live in, and how they can have a voice, express a view and play a part in the democratic process, and to appreciate and understand why that's important, so that they understand that they do have power. There's no need for me to rehearse those arguments now because they have been partially accepted, at last. And I welcome the reference in the annual report on the Curriculum for Wales, published at the beginning of the month, about supporting learners to exercise their democratic rights, and to make political decisions, in order to nurture an understanding of the way in which systems of government in Wales work, as a central element of this area of learning and experience. So, change for the better is afoot, and I welcome that.
But—and I think this is an important 'but', and a 'but' that's worth raising in the Chamber this afternoon—what's being provided at the moment in our education system is inadequate, it's not consistent across Wales and it's not acceptable, therefore, if we truly want to empower our young people to raise their voices and generate change. We must bear in mind that no pupil in year 7 or older at the moment will be educated under the new curriculum. We must not forget those young people. And we must bear in mind that the Westminster elections and the Senedd elections will happen within the next five years, and hundreds of young people will turn 16 before that point. That is why I want to see an improvement in political education being addressed by Government now. There are also concerns that the plans in the new curriculum aren't on the firmest of foundations, and I will mention that in just a moment.

Sioned Williams MS: Our young people have been able to vote at 16 now in two elections—the Senedd elections and the local elections this year. That, of course, is a cause of great joy and pride on a national level. My own daughter voted for the first time in the Senedd elections, and of course she voted for her mother, and my son in the local elections this year, and they clearly come from a family that discusses and, indeed, lives politics. But, I know that they and their friends weren't immersed in the topic in school. And I know that the number of voters participating in our democracy is not high enough, particularly in terms of younger people.
The initial data of the Welsh Government showed that between 40 and 45 per cent of young people aged between 16 and 17 who qualified to vote registered for the Senedd elections last year. Now, clearly, the pandemic had an impact on some of the plans to raise awareness, but survey after survey of young people has demonstrated that they want more political education in a formal setting. And the more young people learn about politics, the more they want to participate in politics. A limited element of what could be called political education is part of the current curriculum, as part of the Welsh baccalaureate and personal and social education.
In responding to a petition presented to the Petitions Committee in the fifth Senedd calling for statutory political education, the Minister for Education at the time, Kirsty Williams, said, 'Schools are already encouraged to provide broad-ranging education, including political awareness, and there are opportunities for learners to look at politics in the current curriculum through the Welsh baccalaureate and personal and social education'. But note the use of the word 'opportunities'. It doesn't give one great confidence that the current situation ensures provision of quality political education in all schools.
Some of the political education that is provided at the moment to our young people therefore emerges from elements within personal and social education, which is a statutory requirement under the curriculum, but, unlike other subjects in the national curriculum, the way that it is taught is reliant on a framework—a framework that schools are expected to use, but that they aren't mandated to do so. The framework says that learners should have an opportunity to learn about active citizenship, but not that they have to have that opportunity.
Many reports echo the findings of an inquiry by our previous Youth Parliament that only 10 per cent of the young people questioned by them had received political education. Their report stated that they were very disappointed to find that very few young people in Wales learnt about politics through political education—something that was frightening, according to them, given the change in the voting age. They felt that this reflected a lack of confidence among teachers and schools in teaching the subject. The Electoral Reform Society Cymru has echoed this point on the patchy nature of provision and the need to support teachers better, particularly given the change that is in the pipeline, with the introduction of the new curriculum.
Education unions have revealed that their members are concerned about providing political education. What more, therefore, can the Welsh Government do to support educators in introducing quality, rounded political education—an awareness that goes beyond an understanding of the bare facts and mechanisms of Welsh governance? How, for example, do we ensure that our young people have an understanding of the history and importance of the trade union movement, or their language rights? We need to teach about the systems and ideologies that give context and meaning to the party political discussions and the electoral processes in the first place. And according to the National Education Union, professional teaching varies across Wales, and we need additional support for this important subject now and in preparation for the requirements of the new curriculum. It is true that new digital learning resources were made available recently, but the lack of confidence and, of course, the lack of experience among teachers—the vast majority having never had any political education themselves—needs to be addressed quickly in order to raise confidence and ability among our educators to ensure a high quality of provision.
In terms of the Welsh baccalaureate, the global citizenship element within the bac does allow for some political education, but this doesn't always follow. At a national level, the aim of the global citizen challenge is to give learners an opportunity to develop an understanding of global issues, chosen from one of the following topics: cultural diversity, fair trade, future energy, inequality, sustainable living, natural and human disasters, and poverty. At a higher level, the global citizen challenge gives pupils an understanding of complex and multifaceted global issues within six themes: health, food and shelter, population, transport, the economy, and the natural environment. So, although every pupil studying the Welsh bac does have to undertake the global citizenship challenge, it won't necessarily include anything about Welsh politics or education about the governance of Wales or the electoral system in Wales. And the Welsh bac isn't mandatory either, although the Welsh Government encourages schools and colleges to provide it to all pupils.
In other nations in the UK, citizenship is a main element of the post-primary statutory curriculum, and Scotland introduced that way before giving the vote to those at 16 years of age. We cannot therefore rely on what is in place at the moment. There are awareness-raising projects, which are excellent and in place already in many school settings. I participated in a session at Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd recently with the Politics Project. But projects such as these, although effective in empowering some groups of young people, are something of a postcode lottery, according to the Electoral Reform Society. The 'Making Votes-at-16 Work in Wales' report by Nottingham Trent University noted that the Welsh Government did not introduce a programme to strengthen political education when the legislation to reduce voting age was introduced.

Sioned Williams MS: A second issue specific to the implementation of votes at 16 in Wales was that the legislation did not include concrete statutory measures of political education, something that had been discussed in the reform process in Wales and identified as crucial in previous experiences of voting age reform elsewhere. This meant that, despite school-level commitments to citizenship education, when the legislation came in, there were no set plans for a co-ordinated effort to enhance political education within schools and colleges. Providers of educational intervention to be delivered through schools, including the Senedd, the Electoral Commission, voter engagement workers and youth organisations, struggled in their efforts to systematically deliver measures of political education throughout the period leading up to the election.

Sioned Williams MS: According to the Electoral Commission report on the last Senedd elections, although the Democracy Box partnership project, which was supported by the Senedd and the Government, was a positive step, we need to extend the reach and impact of these programmes. They acknowledged that we need not only to improve current resources, but also to develop support programmes for those working with these groups. This was a neutral information programme. As I've mentioned, there is also a need for a general understanding of the ideas and ideology, which is the crucial context to governmental elections. There's nothing to prevent this from being delivered from a neutral perspective, such as with contentious moral and ethical issues.
We also need to remember about the thousands of young people who have left school settings and education settings since they were given the right to vote and haven't been inspired to vote. The ongoing weakness of our national press and media actually contributes to the lack of awareness that they so desperately need. So, could the Government therefore consider providing opportunities to tackle that in community education and further education settings, or through informal learning in workplaces, to ensure that all our young citizens can play their part in creating the fairer, greener, more prosperous Wales that we all want to see?
Therefore, in welcoming the progress and the opportunities that exist in the future, I am making the case for ensuring that we don't deprive those young people who have been enfranchised by us, but aren't properly empowered, to use their vote and to understand the power that they hold. It's clear that each one of us in public life has a role to play in this regard, but it's the duty of Government to create citizenswho can contribute to the nation.
Young people are less likely to vote than older people, and unless you vote at a young age you are less likely to vote in the future. There is a very real risk that young people today who won't benefit from the new curriculum will grow into adults that don't vote in the future. We need to break this vicious cycle for the benefit of our democracy, our Senedd and our nation.

Heledd Fychan AS: I thank Sioned Williams for bringing this important debate to the Chamber, because even though there have been developments in terms of the new curriculum, we do need to do so much more. I think that what she emphasised in terms of the postcode lottery is very important. We don't just want to empower young people to vote, but also to consider they could be here, regardless of their background. I think that through empowering them and ensuring that their voice—. Because there is a focus now on 16 and 17-year-olds because we can get their votes, but we do represent children and young people as well. I was very pleased to see pupils from Ysgol Treganna outside the Senedd today, three of them, year 6 pupils, campaigning and wanting to see us act on the climate emergency more quickly, missing a day of school. We're never too young to be part of our democracy.
The thing that I think is very important here is the empowerment, that everyone has a voice and that it counts, and that there is no vote that is worthless. I'd like to emphasise one of the things that I was told by a young person following Brexit, which is that there should be an upper limit on the voting age of things that don't affect you. We talk about young people having the right, but we have to remember how important it is and how important the Youth Parliament is, and other such developments, in order to ensure that the voices of young people and children in Wales are heard by us here, and will influence the policies that'll affect them for decades to come.

I call on the Counsel General and Minister for the Constitution, Mick Antoniw.

Mick Antoniw AC: Thank you, Dirprwy Llywdd. I'd like to thank the Member for bringing the debate forward today on votes at 16.

Mick Antoniw AC: Giving our young people the tools to realise what it means to become ethical, informed citizens of Wales and the world is a fundamental part of civic education. It involves teaching about democracy, our society and how we can all take part, and it's also about empowerment and emancipation.
I'm a firm supporter of enabling our young people to become active participants within the democratic process, from registering to vote through to participating in elections and beyond. I'm proud that we've extended the franchise to 16 to 17-year-olds for Senedd and local government elections. This gives younger people in Wales a voice in the way in which Wales is run, and it's solid foundation for building participatory democracy. My own party is committed to votes at 16 for UK Parliament elections and all other reserved elections as well, which we hope to see in the near future.
We want to help our young people feel confident when they visit a polling station to cast their vote. Ahead of both Senedd and local government elections, we worked in partnership with local authorities to support our 16 to 17-year-olds to register to vote. Engagement through community events, social media content and school visits saw local authorities increase the percentage of 16 to 17-year-olds registered to vote for the recent local government elections.
We also funded several third sector organisations to reach out and engage young people on the importance of registering to vote through their existing networks. These organisations developed and delivered wide-ranging projects, using creative social media content, online webinars and direct conversations with young people, and these social activities created an environment where discussions around politics and democracy could flourish. This approach allowed us to directly reach young people beyond formal education settings, providing a welcoming space for them to discuss the barriers preventing fuller participation.
This was more challenging in the run-up to the last year's Senedd elections because of the public health protections that were in place as a result of the pandemic. But we want all our young people to develop the skills, the knowledge and the understanding about the importance of registering to vote and their voice in our democracy. Learning about the legislative process and governmental structures, law making, devolution, voting and elections are all key to supporting our young people's understanding about politics, but also participating in it. We recognise that education plays a vital role in unlocking their drive for taking part in our democracy and exercising their rights.
When we consulted on extending the franchise in 2018, people told us that greater awareness and education were necessary to increase participation and we know we need appropriate education so our young people can make an informed choice at the ballot box. I agree with many of the comments that have been made in respect of the importance of that civic education. Our new Curriculum for Wales, being rolled out from September, will require schools to include learning about rights in their curriculum, including supporting our learners to develop an awareness and understanding of their democratic rights and how to exercise them. And I'd add the importance of local history as well as part of that education processes. We've invested in educational resources to our schools and colleges to deliver the support that young people are telling us that they need, and we've also produced professional learning resources to support our teachers to teach this area impartially and with confidence. More resources are being developed to support global citizenship and learning about our rights as a citizen.
We've funded the Politics Project'sDigital Dialogue Wales programme, where Members from across the Senedd and local government attend online sessions with our children and young people to engage and put questions directly to politicians. These sessions have been hugely successful, as the Member for South Wales West will know, having given up her time to attend one with pupils from Ysgol Gyfun Gymraeg Llangynwyd in Bridgend.I'm thankful to all the Members in the Senedd who have taken part to date and those who'll participate in the coming weeks.
As the Curriculum for Wales is rolled out, the Welsh Government will continue to work closely with our education partners to support our schools in this area of learning. In doing so, we want our children and young people to have the opportunities and the experiences to increase their understanding of democracy and the role they must play as citizens in an engaging way that promotes a lifelong habit of participation. I'd probably also say to the Member that she'll be aware that we are looking at the introduction of an electoral reform Bill, which hopefully will open the way in which our electoral system operates, increase accessibility, creating a twenty-first century modern electoral system, one that potentially is quite diverged from UK Government elections, but one where I believe there will be many opportunities to look at modern innovative and new ways of actually encouraging and initiating participation in our electoral system. Diolch.

Thank you, everyone. That brings today's proceedings to a close. I hope everyone has a nice recess.

The meeting ended at 18:57.

QNR

Questions to the Economy Minister

Laura Anne Jones: What studies and evaluations have been undertaken regarding the effects of a tourism tax on Welsh businesses?

Vaughan Gething: We are engaging with a wide range of partners to understand the impact of a visitor levy. Two pieces of publishable independent economic research are under way. This work is reviewing the impact of price on visitor demand and comparing taxation systems across areas that use a visitor levy.

James Evans: Will the Minister make a statement on the Welsh Government's support for the hospitality industry?

Vaughan Gething: Our strategy, 'Welcome to Wales: Priorities for the visitor economy 2020-2025', sets our vision and ambition for the sector. The budget for 2022-23, published on 1 March, provides an allocation of £47 million over three years to deliver on those priorities.

Questions to the Minister for Health and Social Services

Huw Irranca-Davies: What discussions has the Minister had with Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board about primary care services?

Eluned Morgan: I regularly meet with the chairs and vice-chairs of all health boards and include specific focus on primary care services. My officials also regularly discuss issues around primary care services with the Cwm Taf Morgannwg University Health Board.

Questions to the Deputy Minister for Social Services

Vikki Howells: How is the Welsh Government supporting health boards and local authorities to tackle delayed transfers of care?

Julie Morgan: Discharge guidance was put in place at the start of the pandemic and updated throughout to reflect latest developments and service pressures. It incorporates 'discharge to recover then assess' pathways introduced during the pandemic. We are working collaboratively with the NHS to re-establish formal discharge reporting, paused during the pandemic.